Friends & Fellow Citizens
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Friends & Fellow Citizens
#44: Higher Education at a Post-COVID Crossroads feat. Hannah Tabor
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As America emerges into post-COVID recovery and growth, education opportunities should evolve, grow, and reach more Americans amid changes in the workforce and workplace. This week, Sherman invites Hannah Tabor, a PhD student specializing in Higher Education Administration at the University of Florida, to hold a conversation together about issues facing higher education after a global pandemic.
Learn more about Hannah's work on her LinkedIn page!
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IMPORTANT NOTE/DISCLAIMER: All views expressed by the host are presented in his personal capacity and do not officially represent the views of any affiliated organizations. All views presented by guests are solely those of the interviewees themselves and may or may not represent the views of their affiliated organizations, the host, Friends & Fellow Citizens, and/or The George Washington Institute.
Patriotism, faith, national unity, education, physical responsibility, civility, the values that define America. Fascinating stories and talks from America-loving patriots dedicated to preserving freedom, opportunity, and justice. Welcome to the Friends and Fellow Citizens Podcast. Thank you so much for joining us today. We have another guest on, and I'm very honored to have her on our show. Before we get into our interview, a couple things. Make sure you subscribe to this podcast if you haven't already and share it with your friends and family. I really appreciate all your support. Also, if you haven't already, check out some of my latest appearances on other podcasts. This is really the best way to promote Friends and Fellow Citizens on other platforms, and I am so thrilled to be able to share a little bit about what we've discussed here on Friends and Fellow Citizens, but also discuss uh other issues of great importance that are facing our nation and world. You can check out the press tab on my website and you can listen and read more about it. Alright, well, our guest today is Hannah Tabor. Hannah is a PhD student in higher education administration at the University of Florida. She has a bachelor's degree in political science and a master's degree in gender, sexuality, and women's studies. Hannah's research and career goals to be an administrator in a community college setting are guided by a passion for making education, specifically higher education, equitable and accessible for all people. Hannah and I actually met several years ago at a student conference, the International Baccalaureate World Student Conference, held in Montreal at the time. And it's this has really been an incredible opportunity to connect with her again, and I'm very happy to have her on the show. Hannah, thanks so much for coming on to Friends and Fellow Citizens.
SPEAKER_00Hi, thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_01So let's just dive a little bit into uh your background and kind of your interest in higher ed. You know, this is our focus today to explore a little bit about education policy, about the future of higher ed and these very uncertain times. Um could you share a little bit about how you got interested uh in this particular field of study that you're doing right now?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so you know, it honestly took me a while to figure out that I wanted a career in education, which is surprising because of my background. Um so, really thinking back in high school where I met you, I attended the International Baccalaureate World Student Conference. I attended two of them. One was focused on social justice, one was focused on human rights. And um for the audience listening, those are conferences for high school students all around the world to come together and you know tackle these big big issues of social justice and human rights and really just get us thinking as young, young people and uh entering college to think about these um issues. So we worked with teams uh to identify ways that we think would be best to solve these issues, and both years my team really emphasized how important education and quality education was to ensuring human rights. Um I just thought that was so interesting because we came from all over the world. And you know, a great example is the story of Nice Lingate. Um she's she was on the New York Times top 100 people list uh of 2019, and um basically she was one of the only females in her village educated on women's health and sex education, and therefore she was able to advocate for herself to evade genital mutilation, and she's helped to eradicate it by educating others. So, this is a great example to show how education can really um make an impact on people to uh advocate for themselves knowledgeably and uh influence others um to uh improve human rights. So that experience was the first time I realized education needs to be available to all people. So after that, I attended Daytona State College as a dual-enrolled student, and I found that many of my classmates were older, a lot of them had families, a lot of them worked full-time, or they were returning students after dropping out. The class size was small and the attention from the professor to students uh was substantial. So then at the university, um, I thought that I wanted to be a politician because I think that changing policies that oppress people is a great way to work towards social justice. And I still believe that, but I realized that I don't have the personality type to be a politician. So for a while I was unsure where I wanted to go from there. Um, but I did know that I still have the ultimate goal of helping people in some kind of way. So my master's degree is in gender, sexuality, and women's studies, and this is an interdisciplinary degree that helped me um, you know, recognize systemic inequities and learn more about minoritized populations and feminism and this kind of thing. And so I apply that to my day-to-day and my current studies. But really, a friend of mine told me to apply to the higher education administration PhD program at the University of Florida, and I didn't even consider it as a career before then. Um, but reading the program description was honestly an epiphany for me that my path has just kind of led me to this spot. And um I really do feel like I can make um a lasting impact, even if it's on a small scale in the field of higher education.
SPEAKER_01That sounds like a lot of really interesting experiences. And uh I've as you pointed out, you know, we met back in the 2014 IB World Student Conference in Montreal. Uh, that was really quite an amazing experience being able to meet a lot of young people and to and to be able to have difficult and frank conversations. You know, not everyone's gonna be on the same page, and people come from different backgrounds, and so I just uh I just wanted to say that real quick. Uh it was obviously Hannah was a great team member. We were on the same team uh as well, kind of the same cohort. Um, and uh amazingly, she remembered me seven years later, which is the most important part. Um But uh I I want to get a little bit more into the higher ed part. Obviously, education is such a broad topic. I mean, if this episode was just about education, um, we would basically would have to have snacks and drinks and all that and uh go for uh as as many days as we can. Um but specifically on higher ed, why uh what part of higher education drew you to uh this part of a student's career and and potentially life as well?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so what makes me interested in higher ed specifically as opposed to other areas of education uh really stems from my experience at Daytona State College. So I truly believe that community colleges and in a lot of states they're now called state colleges because they do offer bachelor's degrees in some in some states and in some uh areas. But I really do feel like the mission of a community college to be accessible and to respond to community needs is very important to create access for non-traditional students. So non-traditional students are essentially anyone who isn't coming from high school into college. This would be someone who is working full-time, someone who is older and returning to school or starting school for the first time. So I really think that um community colleges and state colleges um can can serve a very specific population who are often left out and often in the margins of education, of higher education. And um they're most likely the non-traditional students are most likely to um not be retained and completed. So really my my interest in higher ed is more specifically an interest in um state colleges and is in community colleges to really meet this this uh community need of getting getting people education and having um creating access for people who might otherwise not have access to higher education.
SPEAKER_01Wonderful. And uh we'll definitely get back to community college because I want to touch upon that a little bit more, um, especially in the fact that I grew up in a a part of the country, part of California uh where we had a junior college very close by. So uh and my my mom used to teach there as well, and so I'm vaguely familiar with the importance of that and importance of the institution, not just in the greater area, but really for the state too. Now, let's go a bit more into higher ed as a whole. I mean, you know, we've seen, I think all of us have seen uh the kind of numbers you know in terms of graduation rates, uh, the number of people as a percentage of people who have bachelor's degrees, who now have master's degrees, and and various different degrees move forward. Just as in as a general question, um, what do you think are the main purposes of higher education as we kind of move out of high school, we kind of need a development, still in that development phase. Um, just generally speaking, w what do you think is the the main reason why people go to go to college in your view?
SPEAKER_00I mean, I do think that there is a large group of people who want to continue their studies and specialize their studies. They want to be knowledgeable and skilled in a specific area. But I think speaking more broadly, um, and maybe a little bit more cynically, I think a lot of people attend college to get a job and to make money. Um people who go on for a master's degree and a PhD typically are seeking a um position that comes with a higher paycheck. And I do think that in the way our society functions today, American society specifically, um, it is difficult to be successful in subjective terms, successful being, you know, living a comfortable lifestyle and able to support yourself and your family and and all of that. Um, it is difficult to do that without a college degree because it is difficult to get a well-paying job without a college degree.
SPEAKER_01Well, I appreciate that answer a lot. And the reason why I asked the question that might seem pretty obvious is because we are at a time where we need really need to rethink higher ed. Uh, we are not, I don't think, in that time frame where it was uh a golden ticket to a successful job. And it's not just because of because of COVID, it's also because people realize that there are different interests at play and different factors that affect someone's trajectory and journey from the kind of secondary school education to a successful career and successful job. Now Hannah, what do you think are just some of the issues that you think should be explored as we're kind of thinking of this rethink of higher education in America?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I would like to preface with that. Uh, you know, I have no answers to these very large looming issues in higher ed. Um, but something that has been um talked about a lot um more recently in the last um five to ten years is free college, um specifically first two years free, and then uh more recently talking about free college for everyone. And I I think the the logic makes sense because um, you know, as I was saying before, in today's society, um you are at a severe disadvantage if you don't have um at least a four-year degree, whereas before maybe it was just a two-year degree. Um, but obviously um being able to afford college is a uh necessity um to attend. So this idea of free college is very controversial, controversial um amongst many different people, and I really don't have the answer, but I do think that it is something worth being discussed. Um because obviously uh if we're thinking about access and and making sure that people have access to a quality education, um, they need to be able to afford it. So number two, I would say um is a big issue is sexual assault in Title IX policies. Um so I do think that a lot of institutions have been pressured in recent years to uh rethink their Title IX policies and how they enforce Title IX. Um, but it also feels very um trying to think of the right word, almost for show in a sense, um, just to kind of keep keep people quiet, make sure that their their um image, uh like the institution's image is is preserved and protected as a place that is safe and a place that is um fostering um knowledge and learning and research. Um so I and I so yeah, I do think that that is a big issue in higher education, and it goes back to this accessibility issue um where if sexual assault is a is an issue on campus, which it uh statistically is, um, this this provides an issue of access for for a lot of students who don't feel safe on campus, who don't feel safe going to class, um, who might suffer uh trauma um from those experiences. Um a third issue, I think, is student loan debt and loan forgiveness programs. Um I'm not super familiar with what qualifies for loan forgiveness in each state, but it is interesting that there are some jobs that don't provide loan forgiveness. And I do also think that student loans are student loan debt and specifically the interest rates. You hear all these stories about people who come out with debt and they pay thousands towards it, but they end up owing more when they go back to look at what they owe because of the interest. So this is obviously a big issue because you know you you go to school to be able to get a well-paying job, and then you're paying off your loans for for years and years.
SPEAKER_01Well, I appreciate you raising these three issues, and no doubt that we will be exploring these in some form or another in the future. I'm gonna lump number one, number three a little bit later on. I want to start with number two, if I can, about um the sexual assault issues on college campuses. I'll bring in my perspective, and I'd like to have you come in as well. Since I was very little, there's no question that my respect for women had to be a pillar in my life. And it should be a pillar for every single person to respect each other, treat others the way you want others to treat you. And I am very disturbed about some of the things that I've heard on college campuses, and we can't have that. We can't have this culture. And I think the sexual revolution has unfortunately normalized a lot of this uh and has objectified women in very, very terrible ways. And I I don't know what the magic wand or the magic solution to all this, but I can tell you that for those men out there who, like myself, believe in respecting other women and believe that it is a top priority for all of us. We want to have an active role in playing about this, and it's not particularly helpful when sometimes we're lumped win and lumped in with the actual predators, the actual monsters out there who do these terrible things to women, and obviously the monsters who are on the other way around, who uh the the women who sexually assault men too. That also happens, not as much as the uh the other way around, but I do just want to emphasize that uh we want to have an active role and we need to instill a culture where the people who are feeling these issues can be able to speak out, have a support system, and the good people out there who should be those role models should be active and be able to be welcomed as part of that support system for those who are affected by sexual assault. But I'd like to get your thoughts about this issue and anything else you'd like to add.
SPEAKER_00Sure. So I I do think that the conversation needs to center um respect. I I think that and this starts this starts from from you know birth to all the way through. You're we're products of of our environment. Uh we are we are learn socially, and when we when a society um has sexist values, um, and and of course not only women are sexually assaulted, plenty there are um many cases of of trans people being assaulted and men being sexually assaulted and um all across the the spectrum of genders being sexually assaulted. And and so when I say when I say sexist, I I don't want to imply that I'm only talking about sexual assault towards women. But I do think that when when you know societal perceptions of women are very um uh objectifying, um that is probably the the main reason why sexual assault occurs is a lack of respect and view for for people as as sexual objects. Um and so I do think that the conversations need to start at a very young age of respect for for all people, respect for their bodies and their their privacy and their autonomy, and consent is also an a crucial thing to be taught from a very young age and all the way through, reiterated at every every step of the way through college. Consent is really the the key factor because without consent, then it is um sexual assault or rape. And uh with consent it is not. And um, you know, I think I think a big policy issue as we talk about policy um that uh directly affects you know all aspects of society, including higher education, is um uh laws that uh that laws that essentially say if someone is drunk and sexually assaulted, that um there there's no grounds to to accuse. Um so essentially you consent to get drunk, but you don't consent to um sexual assault or uh whatever act occurred, um, but you have no grounds to stand upon because you were intoxicated. So so things like that need to change um to hold people accountable and consent needs to be taught. So I do think that that those conversations need to be had from a very young age, and then you know, societal actions and values need to follow suit.
SPEAKER_01Well, absolutely wholeheartedly agree with you on you know being able to promote this idea of respect, and uh, that the conditions of one's upbringing and um the environment that they put themselves into is really really something and there's there's definitely a personal responsibility aspect too, right? Which is you know being able to recognize that um we need also have a side personal responsibility. Um I do think that we are seeing trends where um people are not holding themselves uh accountable, not holding others accountable enough. So love to love to have more conversation about again, about how to keep people safe and everything. Let's move into a bit into the um the student loan debt, kind of the how to pay for college and everything in general. Um again, I I just want to emphasize that um you know these conversations can be ongoing. So this is by no means by no means you know saying that you know this is not a Sherman says sort of game or whatever. The Sherman says everyone else does. Um but I I want to I really think that the student loan debt problem is really going crazy. I mean, uh I can't even I think that the number the last time I checked, because I I did do a stint on the hill recently, and I was able to check out this number, and something long lines are what $1.7 trillion in uh federal student loan debt. It's huge. That's basically the size of an economy, essentially, uh one of the top economies in the world. I think that the other thing, I mean, there's like a lot of avenues we can go on how costs have changed and how things have increased and all that. One thing I want to ask you is well, kind of two questions in one. But one is you know, how does the concept of time and opportunity costs fit in? I know it's just kind of an econ term here, but you know, when you put in four years or six or X number of years in the education, notice. like PhDs. You know, I'm not I'm saying I'm not discouraging anyone or anything, but you know, it is a time commitment. You know, and people obviously I think they'll oftentimes forget that um you know when they go into college or go to any kind of education system there's an expended commitment uh of some kind to be there for a number of years. Uh and that kind of adds on to the opportunity as the cost aspect too which is you know there's a lot of people I know some people who've gone into higher ed and they obviously they love to do things like teaching and all that. Those are the kinds of opportunities they want to do. But then they also realize you know for every year they're in school that means more tuition. That means more cost and that's less time you know spending time with family spending or time working etc um so how do you think those two concepts kind of fit in with um the the general debate about people's choice of going to go to college maybe some people benefiting more from it and others maybe not not as much how how do you think that fits in largely with the concept of people being able to choose um not only a path of for education for learning but also a path uh that can be more fiscally sustainable for them well it proposes a big challenge because as you're saying it is you know in a lot of senses a personal choice to attend college in the first place um there are other avenues of uh making an income there are other ways to be successful and and make money other than just getting a college degree there are technical degrees that are shorter and cheaper um and so it it it does pose this big question and challenge of of uh who who and why are we funding your education um you know and then another another thought is um providing scholarships for high school students who who are entering college such as the Florida Bright Future scholarship which is modeled after Georgia Hope and Tennessee uh promise is very similar where you you score a certain score you do a number of volunteer hours and you get um you know your college paid for by the state um that poses a big question of uh equity and privilege and who who is scoring well and who is um knowledgeable to to earn these scholarships which is a whole conversation for another day but when you when you think about all these other ways that that the state that states have tried to fund college there is a big question about why should we have free college and and why why should loans be forgiven if everybody decided to do this by their own free will.
SPEAKER_00I don't have the answer. I do there has to be a better way um I do think loan forgiveness programs are pretty they seem pretty logical. I don't fully I I really don't know much about them at all. I just know that certain careers are eligible for loan forgiveness. So potentially you know speaking on a whim if more careers were offered loan forgiveness or more job specifically offered loan forgiveness um that would be ideal. I don't know what canceling student debt would do for the economy. That's probably a whole question for another day and definitely another person because I do not know enough at all to answer that question. But yeah I I feel like I'm rambling a little bit here because I really I really just don't have a clear clear direction or or or thought or answer to to how to solve this problem. I just you know it's easy to identify problems but very difficult to come up with any semblance of a solution.
SPEAKER_01Yeah that's exactly why politics is never easy because the the solutions are everywhere but it's easy for people to express the the problems and and everything else but I just want to first of all really appreciate your honesty because I I as I said earlier I don't have all the answers either but this is really a way to start that conversation but you mentioned how we need to be wondering how these things affect the economy and I think that's a really important question. We're not asking that question though we're kind of maybe we're in a situation where people are choosing to go to college maybe because they feel that oh I have to go to college because everyone else is doing it. You know kind of like a bandwagon sort of thing or a social pressure kind of situation. Whereas what's best for the economy? Well the economy is made up of a bunch of different people with different talents who produce different goods and services. People need to find that fit and not be pressured into going into one form of education or one system of education. That's how we grow opportunity if we have those opportunities available it's gonna bring in I think more people from all different kinds of backgrounds to be able to participate in the labor workforce and to feel that this is not something where they need to take on student loans. They have to have other people pay for their education. Part of this empowerment is allow people to be able to pay for their career and not just pay for it but to live a very prosperous life. During and after COVID because this has been on the news for quite some time there's already been talk about what higher education looks like even before the pandemic you're seeing some really really staggering numbers. When you hear that American University and George Washington University suspended their PhD programs for political science for two years straight in fall 2020 and fall 2021 I mean that's just astounding. You never thought that it would ever happen in a place like Washington DC but I want to ask you Hannah what you think of the some of these developments that are happening in higher education during and after the COVID 19 pandemic well historically um big events like this um you know the last big one was the the recession in 2008 historically enrollment trends decrease um which is a problem but they do ultimately um you know go go back up over time it is hard for me to be pessimistic because I do think that through the challenges of the last year and almost year and a half I do think that this has uh created a lot of opportunities for growth in higher education um it's also created a lot of uh time and space for people to rethink online learning um a large critique of online courses uh in the past and you know as we're looking to re-reimagine current online courses a a big complaint is lack of engagement lack of engagement leads to uh reduced retention and completion um and engagement looks different uh or engagement can occur in a lot of different ways the most you know predominant when you think of student engagement would be faculty member to student which is obviously strained when you're in an online environment the next one would probably be student to student which of course is also strained in an online environment um you also have uh relationships with academic advisors in different places on campus in higher education we we call those kinds of things the hidden curriculum so to say all of essentially all of those things can be very helpful for students but you have to know how to navigate all the student services available to be able to be successful.
SPEAKER_00So when we think about COVID 19 and how it has made us rethink online learning and uh face-to-face learning I think it gives us an avenue and a reason to redevelop our online programs to be more engaging to maybe uh incorporate this um synchronous online session Zoom type thing Microsoft Teams not to replace face to face but to supplement um I do think you know the Zoom has worked Zoom classes have worked very well for me for one specific reason my classes are at the largest 15 people my smallest are five so you can see everybody on your screen and you can talk across the classroom and listen to the lecture and see everybody on your screen all at once. It is easy to manage the chat so that is the one reason why online learning for me this past year did not feel too different that from face to face for undergraduates who have large lecture lecture halls online learning was a completely different experience where they were able to disconnect and disassociate and not be engaged. So when I say it's hard to be pessimistic we see all of these challenges you know presented before us how do we navigate where we're at right now and then as we move to face to face again in the fall how do we navigate reimagining our online programs to be more engaging so that all students can be successful and retained be retained from semester to semester and then ultimately graduated and then how can we how can we enhance our face-to-face courses to also incorporate some of this online interaction um perhaps Zoom office hours might make office meetings more accessible for students. Being able to meet with your professor online where you might not even have to put your camera on might feel more comfortable for students as opposed to going to the physical office and knocking on the door to ask questions. So little things like that might ultimately make a huge difference for students as far as accessibility goes because we all have different needs and we all have different um comfort levels. So I I think I think it's hard to be pessimistic. I think there's going to be a lot of really great things that come out of the the pandemic as we you know come over the the hump here and into the other side as devastating as this past year was for so many people.
SPEAKER_01Going back to what we were saying earlier about community college and some of the other options that people can explore including vocational training apprenticeships and others how do you see community college and all those other alternatives play into this idea to make education more equitable and accessible after COVID 19 yeah absolutely I I apologize because it was it's air easy to answer those types of questions um in terms of my own experience which of course was at a university setting um but of course the pandemic posed a very specific and unique challenge to community college students and vocational students um and uh trade students specifically you know vocational and trade students a lot of times those are hands-on face-to-face kind of jobs you know ultrasound technician you you have to be you learn by doing in those kinds of fields so sure there's there's the the uh coursework that you have to take previously which um probably w had you know similar experiences to university students but then the actual skill itself um I I truly don't know how they did that online or if they even did um so of course those those those uh students experience in those programs had a different experience and for community colleges um as I was saying before non-traditional students had a very they experienced different barriers throughout the pandemic than students at a university who in many cases had uh family homes to to return to um and dorms to to return to um so when you think about non-traditional students who have families who have jobs who had to navigate now working at home with students uh their children at home and taking their classes at home um that's it's an incredible challenge um that is you know something I didn't mention previously but is you know very evident um in the current time so I do think to answer your question as we move forward and we see how these types of programs and um community colleges are going to adapt and evolve um I think one of the main things might be um programs offering two different modalities having a split split modality where students can choose to either log into class via Zoom or Microsoft Teams or watching a lecture a recorded lecture or attending the face-to-face modality.
SPEAKER_00I was recently interviewing someone for my job and he was discussing how the online modality in the pandemic created an opportunity for him to to get ahead in his degree program because he travels across the country for his job and previously he was barely ever able to take courses even as a part-time student because he could not physically attend the face-to-face classes so for him the online opportunity prevent uh presented him um a way to complete his degree so I I do think that that might be a consideration to create access for students who have different needs um who don't there's not a one size fits all uh at any institution but I but at a research institution where most of the students are are traditional students, you you can you can find more one size fits all approaches in those kinds of environments.
SPEAKER_01I appreciate you speaking about flexibility and making sure that our higher ed is in line with what the labor workforce market is looking for because that is going to be very very critical for our graduates I also hope that you know we don't take too much of the discomfort away obviously discomfort is in like an educational sense you're knocking on a professor's door it does seem very intimidating and it was currently for me but it builds a lot of character and one day we will all be knocking on someone's door and not really want to go inside because we know we're gonna get criticized so um it just a little quick thing though um let's let's keep some of those obstacles there to uh to train people and to teach people that uh life is not all hunky dory clearly I want to turn to something a little different here. One thing that stood out from your experience Hannah is your work with the Bob Graham Center. Bob Graham being a senator and former governor in Florida this really reminded me a lot about the importance of having proper civic engagement and civility practices. Clearly we're seeing a lot of people not having those opportunities and those important conversations to speak about bring people together and to do more listening rather than uh doing more shouting which is seems like it's dominating almost every single space we can think of social media and even in the halls of Congress I mean tell us a bit about your experience with the Bogram Center and some of your thoughts about how to get people engaged in conversation again on a higher ed because we don't really we shouldn't be really discussing this in higher education. It should be an all-natural thing shouldn't it?
SPEAKER_00Yeah so I'll start with that actually um so when I first started uh working with the Bob Graham Center it was I mean I was a student student organization so it was not a a paid job or internship of any kind it was more um you know student engagement and volunteering um I my first job I I mean I started college in 2016 so my first job was uh voter registration we had a table in the libraries multiple days per week and uh we had volunteers from our organization um with the voters voter registration forms and we found that this modality was far more successful than the students who stood on the side of the sidewalks also um you know attempting to get people to register to vote as they were walking in class the students were m far more likely to stop at a table on their way into the library where they were going to sit down for an extended period of time to um you know the their choosing to come up to the table and register to vote. We we registered a lot of students to vote and that was a very uh eye-opening experience to one see how many people were not registered to vote and um two to see uh how how easy it was to get students to register to vote um literally just by having a table set up. One of the next things I did with that organization um was uh I was on the committee for the future of Florida summit. I actually attended my first year and then uh I was on the committee for the conference the second year. Basically it's a student run conference um out of the Bob Graham Center and uh uh we focused on the state of like issues in the state of Florida um and similar to the IB World conferences we worked with small teams um over the span of two days to um present a uh policy you know change that um we actually had judges come from the state the top two I believe um would actually go on they would help them edit to actually go on to be presented um to uh congressmen to see if they would um maybe pursue that further um at the state level but those were all great experiences to to be engaged but you know it it catered to a very specific group of people and that group of people were were students who were already interested in it. Um I I would say that other than that my experience with civic engagement on college campus was um very little to none when um Richard Spencer uh in that same semester uh attended um he was uh right after Charlottesville um he uh came to UF to speak um and I do remember that this this event caused um you know across the entire campus conversations on Facebook and conversations in my class. I mean I think almost every class the day before and the day after the event um we talked about the we spent the entire class period talking about this issue. And I one of the most profound things it was the day after the event um I was in a class titled um black political thought and um one of the black men in the room uh was referencing the Together UF hashtag that was spreading around Twitter and Facebook and and and Instagram to basically you know uh everyone's uh sending a message of love and that we did not condone this this uh white s white supremacy uh white white supremac ideals that we were you know essentially together UF with with everyone who was affected by this blatant act of racism um and he was basically calling calling it out and saying we're not together UF you can't you can't say together UF over a hashtag uh for uh the next week because an event occurred but then not change anything on campus or not even ask uh us what our experiences are as as minoritized students on on campus on a predominantly white campus so I I would say that perhaps the best way to engage is to encourage professors to take time out of the curriculum out of their their uh agenda to create an an environment for students to just talk with each other um another great way would be to um uh create affinity groups for students who uh minoritize students who don't always have a platform to speak or feel comfortable speaking in a predominantly white space um this would be a another great way to um for conversations to to emerge and for you know ultimately issues to to come to light to people who of privilege who might not even realize that these issues are occurring. Civic engagement on college campuses is very difficult to achieve because students are taking very specific courses for a specific degree um in a specific program. So it is difficult to force students to learn and educate themselves um or to educate them on on how to be more civically engaged and civically involved.
SPEAKER_01Well I want to thank you so much for sharing a little bit about your experience with the Bob Graham Center and what you've said and people listening to each other doing more of that having more opportunities for this clearly we denounced Richard Spencer wholeheartedly I mean this guy is absolute piece of trash no question about it. But we also really need to think of that balance between having those First Amendment principles and rights protected for people regardless of how terrible their views are and we're able to add more opportunities for Civic conversation. In the wake of something like a Richard Spencer event when there's clearly a lot of concern about his views, I think the best way to counter that is to show not only do we not harbor those views, but this is just another opportunity for us to get to know each other as civilized people and to have civil conversations. That really could be the big victory here. And I want to tie now into the other five principles and mentioned civility earlier. But it's a tradition on friends and fellow citizens to reflect on those six principles patriotism, faith, national unity, education, fiscal responsibility, and civility. So Hannah, could you share with us your thoughts about one, two, or three, or any of these other values of Washington's farewell address that you think would be valuable to not only your career and your knowledge, but also to a larger conversation about higher education as a whole?
SPEAKER_00Gosh, um, it's hard to just talk about one. Um I I wanna I I'm interested in patriotism because I think that in the last four years, patriotism has been tied very closely with um the Republican Party and very closely with um uh anti-unity, anti-equity, um, anti-social justice, you know, sentiments. Um and I I do think uh I do think there's an element of patriotism that is passive in today's society. I think it is passive to to be a patriot or to uh take pride in your nation when it's only serving you and people like you, and you have zero regard or consideration for for other people. So when we think about patriotism, you know, I I think I think we need to be more critical when we think about patriotism. Um and this this idea, you know, it permeates into everything we've talked about today. If we think about patriotism and and uh and not being passive about it in the sense of a higher education institution, whether that's a community college or a D1 research institution, um or R1, I'm sorry, I mean D one as well, but R1 research institution, um we we we can see it as a mini mini version, a mini reflection of our society, right? So um we look at a we look at these different types of institutions as a reflection of society and the future of our society as well as uh you know tr students, college students tend to trend younger. Um and when we look at patriotism on a college campus, you don't really see a lot of it. You maybe see some school pride, which could maybe maybe metaphorically uh you know translate to American society and patriotism, but we we lose sight of what patriotism means, and if we think critically about patriotism and why it's important, we we become we need to thinking critically would require us to think about access and equity and what that means in terms of our current society and how it is structured, and we also need to think about it in a sense of compassion and consideration for other people who are less privileged than us and how we can utilize our privilege. Um, whether and and there's varying levels of privilege. When I say when I say I'm privileged, that does not mean that I have not experienced hardships, and that does not mean that you as a male in society have not experienced hardships um relating to other other characteristics of yourself. Um and I think a lot of people people forget that when we talk about privilege, but we we as a society need to recognize our own privilege and how we can utilize our to our to our the best of our ability, how can we help others? And I think that is really what patriotism is all about, and we cannot claim to be a patriot or claim to um uh have pride in our nation if we are not actively working to to make it a a better place for for everybody uh in the nation. We cannot be selfish if we're going to be patriots.
SPEAKER_01That's such a great final line. We cannot be selfish. I I can't uh I can't I I just I just love that a little bit that you added. Um it kind of it was like a crescendo to that to that final statement. That was really great, Hannah. Um, what you said about about that and and you know thinking about others, you know, helping others, that really is the key. You mentioned how um patriotism uh uh unfortunately has been kind of tied just one party and all that. When I know that there's patriots from the Democratic Party, Republican Party, Libertarian Party, no party at all, um those from big cities, rural parts of the country, there's so many. There's there's countless. And I I just uh I I love you know the the the kind of message that you that you put out. And uh one final um the bit before we we wrap things up. Um what sorts of things uh are you thinking of doing uh when you are uh done with your homework, uh when the red ink has ended? Uh um I don't know if it's maybe strictly red ink now, maybe it's um um with electronic now, maybe it's red pixels or something nowadays in online learning. But when when you've cleared that, when you've got that diploma, uh that excuse um we'll have to call you Dr. Tabor, which um will be will be uh I'm sure very humbling. Um but um hopefully uh if you if I ever end up back in school and you're teaching a class and you're grading exams, make sure to read the name on the paper before you decide whether or not to be uh nice or uh harsh on that person. Hopefully, maybe by the end of this episode you'll just you'll determine if you'll be nice or harsh to me. Um but uh anyway, I just want to give you an opportunity to just uh share with the audience uh bit about what do you like to do in the future and uh any final remarks you'd like to make for us.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, um I, you know, current next steps, figure out a topic for my dissertation. Otherwise, I will not be Dr. Tabor. But once I once I get that title, um, you know, I I want to work at a state college, um, probably in Florida, because I do value being close to my family. Um and I don't there's not necessarily a job title I'm after. I what something that intrigues me about state colleges is that you really you really get a group of people who are committed to the institution. Um there's not there you get people who who start and finish their careers at the institution. And I I see myself doing the same thing. I don't mind starting at a you know more entry-level position, even with the PhD title, because I fully intend on working laterally and upwards and whichever which way, um, depending on, you know, my expertise, uh, the needs of the institution, the needs of the community. Um, so I really have this mindset that I want to go and work at a community college, a state college, and um see what I can do, what I can bring to the table, and and see what what I can do with others that work at the institution to make it make it more accessible, more equitable, have better outcomes, um, and reach more people. So that that's really the the general goal. I I think that I I there's not a specific job title I'm after. There's not a specific um area of higher education that I want to work in. I could see myself teaching. I have some experience teaching and I like that a lot. So I could see myself teaching, I could see myself doing a mix of teaching and administration. So we'll see, whichever whichever the way way the wind blows, to be honest. So that's kind of where I'm at.
SPEAKER_01Excellent. Well, Hannah, I want to thank you so much for coming onto the show. I know that you and I have found areas of common ground, areas where we differ, but I'm very grateful to you, not only because we get to connect after several years, uh, but I'm really so happy to hear that you're doing really well, you're spending a lot more time as a gator, and I know that uh you're gonna go out and do some great things, and I really appreciate you really leaning by example as to what higher education should be about, uh, because it should be about the connections that you make before, during, and after college, and looking at how we can make our systems better, and despite people's differences on opinions and whatnot, the fact that we're able to have such a robust conversation about some really, really interesting and important issues dealing with college and universities and all the rest. Good luck on your PhD journey and thank you so much for coming on.
SPEAKER_00Thank you so much for inviting me. I'm thrilled to be able to have gotten to talk with you again after seven years of you know some social media interaction. But uh yeah, I I appreciate being invited to speak today, and uh um I hope that we can stay in touch.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. Well, thank you all for listening to this episode. I hope you enjoyed it. If you haven't already, again, make sure you follow this podcast. We've got some more amazing content later this summer and way beyond. Enjoy the rest of the day and the rest of your week, and I will see you next time.
