Friends & Fellow Citizens
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Friends & Fellow Citizens
#16: Glimpses of the Hermit Kingdom feat. Ben Zimmer
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With so limited information about North Korea, why are the issues surrounding the Hermit Kingdom important for the future of regional security in Asia and the fight against totalitarianism? We invite a former guest Ben Zimmer back to share with us more about the history of North Korean leaders, as well as the economic hardships, nuclear threats, and human rights abuses of the authoritarian DPRK regime.
Supplementary links:
Liberty in North Korea
Database Center for North Korean Human Rights
Commission of Inquiry into North Korean Human Rights (UN Human Rights Council)
38 North (Stimson Center)
Daily NK (Defector-run North Korea News site based in Seoul)
Wilson Center's North Korea International Documentation Project
NK News
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IMPORTANT NOTE/DISCLAIMER: All views expressed by the host are presented in his personal capacity and do not officially represent the views of any affiliated organizations. All views presented by guests are solely those of the interviewees themselves and may or may not represent the views of their affiliated organizations, the host, Friends & Fellow Citizens, and/or The George Washington Institute.
Today, one of our returning guests will be coming on back to the show to explain to us how he views North Korea as one of the most challenging but obscure nations in the study of political science and international relations and of current events. Let's hear what he has to share about some of the challenges in the history of North Korea and of the challenges that are facing our values today. Let's begin. Patriotism, faith, national unity, education, fiscal responsibility, stability, the values that define America. Fascinating stories and talks from America-loving patriots dedicated to preserving freedom, opportunity, and justice. Welcome to the Friends and Fellow Citizens Podcast. I'm your host, Sherman Taloski. Today we have another guest, Kamaki actually was a former guest just a few episodes ago, and he's back today to share with us about North Korea. We've heard a lot about North Korea in the past in the news, uh in government publications, but let's go deeper into the history of North Korea, why the situation is what it is nowadays. I'm going to introduce Ben again. For those of you who don't know Ben, it holds a Master of International Affairs degree from the Bush School of Government at Texas AM University, where he studied Chinese politics and intelligence. His research interests include authoritarian politics, nuclear proliferation, and East Asian security with a focus on the Korean peninsula. His writings have appeared online and in print with Charged Affairs, the Journal of Sino-American Affairs, the Peninsula Report, and the Houston Chronicle, among others. Currently, he has a forthcoming manuscript on North Korea with the Security Challenges Journal and is working on projects examining Chinese nuclear proliferation and North Korean foreign policy from 2016 to 2019, as well as applying to doctoral programs to further his studies. And without further ado, I'm going to introduce Ben Zimmer again. Hey Ben, how are you?
SPEAKER_00Hey Chairman, thanks for having me back.
SPEAKER_01No problem. Thank you so much for coming back and for sharing more with our audience today. And we had a remarkable episode with Dr. Norris just a few weeks ago. I can't wait to get into a different part of East Asia now as we shift from China to a bit up north now with North Korea. Let's first get some history here. It's always nice to ground ourselves in history a little bit. I think a lot of us remember what the Korean War stood for in terms of the significance and the post-World War II era of U.S. foreign policy. So walk us through a bit of the background and a general summary and significance of the Korean War.
SPEAKER_00A little bit of significance. But in June of 1950, Kimel Sung decided to cross the DMZ with his troops as a way to unify the Korean peninsula under communism, and his attempt at least. And a brief quick summary of the war. This is going to blanket over a lot of detail, but a brief summary. Within a few months, he was able to push the US and South Korean forces back to Pusan and the Pusan perimeter, which held for a while. And then when MacArthur and the UN decided to intervene, they were able to push back to the 38th parallel and even up north into North Korea as an attempt to unify Korea from under America and under democracy and liberal values. And then by the end of 1950, early 1951, they were back at the 38th parallel, slugging it out. For every inch gained, everybody lost an inch. And by 1953, the parties came together, signed an armistice agreement that made the border the 38th parallel, and basically enshrined North and South Korea as they are today. And a lot of the significance for North Korea is it's shaped a lot of what North Korea perceives as a threat. Because the US intervention has been greatly demurred by North Korea even today, and North Korea views the U.S. as starting the war, and South Korea is the ones that fired the first shot. And there's museums about U.S. atrocities in North Korea. There's entire speeches that the Kims have given basically saying the US was the aggressor, the U.S. did all these horrible things, including civilians and bombing our cities and everything. And while some of it's true, a lot of it is exaggerated. But I think the biggest significance for a topic today or for a discussion today is that it really cemented North Korea and South Korea as a permanent division and really put those political differences like very on very firm ground and in very deep competition with each other. And it really solidified the threat of the United States in North Korea's political calculus.
SPEAKER_01Now, from what I understand, they're technically still at war, right? Because they've never signed a peace agreement. So what does that have to do, you think, based on the really the significance and the dynamics between North Korea and South Korea?
SPEAKER_00So it has a lot to do, and that's a really good question, Chairman. And they're still at war. Um the armistice was signed in 1953. There has been no peace agreement, as you mentioned. And one key debate in South Korea and the US today is really getting a peace agreement together. And it's actually one of the arguments I make in my forthcoming publication is that the US should use a peace agreement as basically a positive reward for denuclearization. And we'll talk about some of that later. But I think it's really shaped the dynamics of competition on the Korean peninsula. And you see this ebb and flow of North Korea does something very aggressive. The US responds either aggressive or chooses to be not so aggressive, and then somehow tensions dissipate and they come back again. And some key examples kind of in history, you have the Pueblo incident in the 60s, where the North Koreans board and take a U.S. spy ship hostage and the crew hostage, and then after months of negotiation, the crew's release, but North Korea keeps the ship and tensions dissipate. Um, a more recent example you had in 2015, 2016, I think, there was a landmine that went off and named a South Korean soldier. It sparked competition, it sparked possibly another heightened Korean War scenario, and somehow tensions dissipated, the armistice held. It's amazing the armistice is held for 70 years. Don't know how that's happened, but it has. It shaped the mindsets of both North and South Korea. They're very much very militaristically aggressive. South Korea, you still have um conscription into the army for a couple of years, it's about I think 10 months now, or not 10 months. It's about a year and 10 months. And then in North Korea, you have forced conscription of all males and females. That's a and that is all close to 10 years, depending on who you are. So it's really shaped, I think, the nature of the competition that there's still an armistice and no peace agreement. I think it's continued to leave it at a military standoff. That's it's easy to raise tensions, hard to bring them back down, but somehow we've been able to do it and we've backed off that war footing.
SPEAKER_01Let's go back to North Korea as kind of its identity, because it a lot revolves around its leaders. Um, and I think it's important to go back a little bit and go through the uh those three main leaders that North Korea has had, because the leadership really frames a lot of what the state does and how it essentially controls its own policy and reacts to um other nations and how they treat uh North Korea. So, Ben, uh let's go to the first one, which is Kim Il-sun. Tell us about who he is and what his leadership's uh style and legacy was like in terms of shaping you know what North Korea was and what it is now.
SPEAKER_00Kim Il-sung has had a big influence on North Korea. He his rise to leadership, I would argue, is one of serendipity. He didn't really have the right word here, he didn't really have the experience to become leader. But when he returned to North Korea following the end of World War II, he had served as an anti-Japanese fighter in the Soviet and the Chinese militaries. He had really good connections in the Soviet Union, and so when the Soviet Union tried to install a government, he was seen as loyal to the Soviet Union and was helped helped through the process in that way and was basically installed as a leader. So I would say that he's his rise is more of serendipity, but his impact has been astronomical. He is the architect, his admin, he is known as the architect, he's not really the architect of the Juche ideology, which sees North Korea as a self-reliant state and it man is the master of the revolution, and we can do everything ourselves. We're passionate about that. He's also a little more open to his people. He's portrayed in the media as this fatherly figure. He's caring for the citizens. You see propaganda posters and stories of him going out to see to schools and holding children on his lap and ensuring that he's there and being the strategist and doing all he can for his people and tirelessly working for his people. And I think you still see a lot of that today with Kim Jong-un trying to resuscitate that image and trying to be that one who's doing everything he can for his people while also having some of that serendipitous leadership rise to the top kind of story as well. So his impact has definitely been a big one.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and from what you have researched on him, um, what can you tell about the kinds of challenges that he's had to face, certainly in the aftermath of uh the uh Korean War and kind of that time period. Are there any particular challenges that you think are worthy of speaking of when it comes to the leadership of Kimul-Sun?
SPEAKER_00Um, I think one thing that he I think it wasn't really a challenge, but I think one thing he did well is he marshaled resources to ensure he was isolated from any criticism. And you see it with the Korean War, especially. When it fails and he doesn't get what he wants, he's very adept at purging his cadre to get what he wants and shaping his cadre and his cabinet based on what he needs in order to succeed. But I think one thing he did really well is he managed North Korea very well. He was able to put North Korea on a path where for 50, not 50, someone years, 30, 40 years, it was up there with the economic, up there in parity with South Korea. And he was able to manage relations during the Sino-Soviet split very well. Um, one of the challenges he faced was ensuring he got the most from China and the Soviet Union without losing them. And so he was adept at kind of going to China for one thing, and that would piss off the Soviet Union, which would then go back into the Soviets' camp and piss off China, and he was very adept at playing them off each other. I think that was probably his biggest challenge was the Sino-Soviet split after the Korean War, but he was very, very skilled in diplomacy, I will say.
SPEAKER_01We certainly don't understand what the authoritarian leader goes through here uh in the US now and we want to keep it that way. Let's to put that for the record. Um, but let's now move on to his successor. So Kim Ilson uh dies in 1994, um, and Kim Jong nail takes over. So let's talk about him for a second. What does he bring to the table and the kinds of things that he had to uh cope through with during his premiership?
SPEAKER_00All right. So Kim Jong il's leadership is interesting. So he officially takes position of I don't forget, I think he took vice chairman of the Korean Workers' Party in 1997. But he's at the top in '94. And he's come up through propaganda. He's a huge movie buff. Um probably has one of the greatest collections of Western movies in the world, which is really weird that that's in North Korea. He's a huge cognac fan. And fun fun stat, during his leadership, North Korea was the largest importer of cognac in the world. Um, so he has he has a bad diet, but he he comes up through propaganda. He there's a big debate on when he actually takes the reins of North Korea. Some a lot a lot of scholars will argue that he's he's really in command towards the end of Kim Jong il Kim Il sung's time as leader, and Kim Il sung is basically the face. And basically, and what he did is he was effective at cutting off information to Kim Il-sung, and basically he was the chief of staff, let's say, as a way to make it applicable to the listeners, where he would get get the information, filter out what he wanted, and give Kimul-sung what he thought he wanted, and then Kim Jong-il would handle kind of the day-to-day tasks. So there's there's some evidence to point that he was actually leading North Korea 10, 20 years before he actually takes full command. So he has this lead-in period that he gets to train and kind of be responsible for things without taking responsibility for him as leader. But when he comes to power in '94, he's a lot different than his father. His father was very outgoing, very personal with his leadership, very personal with his people. Kim Jong-il was a recluse. Um, there's only one recording of his entire of his voice in the world. He got rid of getting giving New Year's speeches. He started writing New Year's editorials so he didn't have to give out and give speeches. And he was very firm in the cult of personality. It's Kim Jong-il is the reason Kimmel Sung's cult of personality is so huge. He's responsible for building tens of thousands of statues throughout North Korea to him and his father. He's responsible for the way North Korean film is the way it is today. He's responsible for a lot of changes in literature and a lot of changes in art. And he's really, really big in that propaganda world. And that's why it's, I would argue he's one of the reasons why North Korean propaganda is super effective towards its citizens during a time of great famine.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and then there was this concept of Song Goon, right? Military first. Uh, was that implemented under Kim Jong-il, or was that just kind of really upgraded, shall we say, um, in North Korean foreign policy?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so Kim Jong-il does implement Song politics. His father's line is really the juce line, self-reliance, we can do it kind of thing. And there is a bit of kind of the military takes precedence. The military is a vaunted part of society. But during the famine is especially where Song comes into play, because Kim Jong-il really wants to keep the military first and the military happy. He's a huge hawk when it comes to security. And so he diverts a lot of resources that would typically go to civilians to the military. So in North Korea, they had the public distribution system, which provided citizens with food, rations, whatever you needed from the state. And when the system collapsed, it still went to the elites in Pyongyang and the military, not the citizens first. And one of the big um investments that Kim Jong-il made under Songgen politics is an investment in North Korea's nuclear arsenal. And he's really under Kim Jong-il is where you see the nuclear arsenal take off and really become cemented as a part of North Korean foreign policy. And it expands under Kim Jong-il, and I'm sure we'll talk about it here in a minute. But this is definitely where you see the start of it is that Song Gun politics and diverting the resources to the military to ensure your security, ensure your safety, um, rather than feeding your citizens, which is a very horrible trade-off.
SPEAKER_01His fascination for Western movies, I did not know about that. I wasn't sure what his tastes and preferences were on uh more cultural stuff. Uh you mentioned that he there's only one known recording of him. I guess he wasn't a big podcast kind of guy. Uh go ahead.
SPEAKER_00The one uh recording we have of him comes from um two South Korean, a South Korean actress and a South Korean director, and the story of how they got it is ridiculous. So Kim Jong-il really liked their movies. I forget their names off the top of my head, but he really liked their movies, and they've they'd worked together, um, this director and this actress, and he ended up kidnapping them. He got them to come to China, would kidnap them, and took them to North Korea to really build up North Korea's propaganda films. Make them better, make them, you know, better special effects, better directing, better acting. And so when they got out of North Korea, they had a recording of his voice. Somehow they had gotten it in a private meeting and um with him, and they were discussing kind of their life in North Korea, and that is that is the one recording we have of his voice.
SPEAKER_01Let's move on to uh real briefly to Kim Jong-un. We'll touch upon the issues, and many of these issues, of course, are occurring under um Kim Jong-un's uh totalitarian rule. Uh but just briefly, Ben, what are the kinds of characteristics you think are most important to understanding who Kim Jong-un is?
SPEAKER_00So this is um this is a tough one because Kim Jong-un comes up a little different than his father and his grandfather. He comes up with less than two to three years training where his grandfather was grandfather had the military background as an anti-Japanese fighter for his legitimacy. His father had 20, 30 years of build-up to him becoming leader. Um, Kim Jong-un takes over in 2011, and he's he's not officially named successor, I don't think, until about 2008. So he's only got about three years of being a formal, formally designated successor. And there's a whole family drama behind it that we can get into if you would like um as to why he's chosen over his half-brother or his brother. I'll kind of gloss over it, but his half-brother is Kim Jong Nam, who we'll probably talk about here in a minute, because there's a that big story out of Malaysia with him. Um but his half-brother is Kim Jong Nam, and Kim Jong Nam is seen as first in line when Kim Jong il starts having health issues. But he ends up going to Tokyo Disney on a fake passport and gets caught. And when he's caught, Kim Jong-il isolates him to Macau, and that's basically his. He's out, he's no longer in contention, and so it moves to his full brother, Kim Jong Cho. So um Kim Jong Chou is then in line. Kim Jong Nam's out after Disneyland. Kim Jong Chou is then the next would be the next in line, but he's a huge Eric Clapton fan. Um, he's has been seen at Eric Clapton concerts in Europe and throughout the world. And so he's he's ruled out because Kim Jong il sees him as too effeminate. And he doesn't really have an interest in politics, so he's not he's not gonna make a good leader. So then you come to Kim Jong un, and Kim Jong un takes over because he's kind of the one of black, he's kind of the son of last resort. So he is technically third in line to get the this position. And so he's he carries that chip on his shoulder, I would say. And he carries that need for legitimacy throughout his formative years of his rule. And I also think him being rising to the top in two to three years, he also needs to prove to his people that he is the person to do it. And so in 2013, 2014, he unveils this Pyongyin line, which basically is for North Korea to survive, we need to develop nuclear weapons and the economy at the same time. And he spends a lot, long part of his first, I would say, three to four to five years, probably even up almost to 2018, really fast tracking nuclear development. And you heat under his watch, you've seen we've seen more nuclear tests than any other Kim Jong-il and Kimil-sung combined. We've seen more missile tests, I think, in like two years of Kim Jong-un than all of Kim Jong-il and Kim Il-sung's reigns combined. And so he's really cemented North Korea as a nuclear state. And he's made the developments required to, I think, not secure his position as power, but show his strength and kind of get the legitimacy that this policy is the way to go. I am the way to go. And now I think we're seeing him reign, seeing him rule with a little bit more security in his position as Supreme Leader of North Korea.
SPEAKER_01We'll we'll get into the issues now, um, because that's really where it ties into the more contemporary aspect of Kim Jong-un's um totalitarian uh rule of North Korea. And the first, I think, is something uh we've all kind of realized, you know, comparing pretty clearly, you know, capitalism versus communism here. Um and and that it's the economy. Um we know that there uh is a lot of destitution out there. Uh we've seen even some of the images. We uh know that the uh way of doing things over there is just not reflective of uh prosperous society, shall we say. Um so Ben, uh walk us through some of those economic issues more specifically about the famine, about sanctions, and uh about the economic pace, shall we say, of North Korea. There's a lot to unpack in there, but uh feel free to go slowly as you uh walk us through those issues, please.
SPEAKER_00All right. So I'll kind of give a brief history a little bit. So following the Korean War, both Koreas are desolate. I mean, it's more bombs are dropped on the Korean peninsula than all of World War II. So it's it's a pretty desolate place, as you mentioned. But what happens is there's a lot of factories in North Korea, which is a remnant of Japan, Japanese occupation. There's a lot of factories. The Soviet Union pumps a lot of money into building up North Korea. And so up till about the 60s, you see North Korea is successful. They're able to provide food, free housing, whatever you need. And it looks like it's the socialist utopia that they promised. Um, in the 90s, the Soviet Union collapses, which is a big issue for North Korea. There was a lot of aid coming from the Soviet Union, and one of the biggest things that comes with the Soviet collapse is they start charging North Korea market prices for their products, and North Korea can't pay. So North Korea's economy basically tailspins to what we kind of view it as today. And in the early 90s, there's this massive famine that claims anywhere between I think estimates are anywhere between 500,000 and 2 million people in North Korea. Which to give some to give some context, that's about up to 10% of the population. It's about 5 to 10% of the population in North Korea is wiped out by the famine. And what happens after is and part of it is because of the Songin politics and the military first. So a lot of the resources are diverted to the military and the famine. And then you see the development of nuclear weapons, a very aggressive foreign policy under Kim Jong-il, and especially that first few years of Kim Jong-un's reign. And a lot of the sanctions that are on North Korea now are in response to the development of missiles and nuclear weapons, um, which we'll tie into, I think, what we're gonna talk about later. But that's kind of what you see now. And the hardest hit sanctions were the ones in 17 and 18. Um, before then, there was a livelihood loophole that North Korea could import whatever it wanted. Basically, there were some things that were completely prohibited, but North Korea had a lifeline to where if it was for the livelihood of the people, they could import it. So there was no cap on coal, oil, kind of the basic necessities. And then in 2018 and 20, 2017-2018, the Security Council finally put a cap on the amount of coal North Korea can import. And so now North Korea has resorted to illicit means to pick out to get oil from China, including ship-to-ship transfers at sea, um, flying flags, flying different nations' flags on their ships, um, and a bunch of other illicit means. If you're interested in the illicit North Korean economy, I can go into that as well. So the first thing in the illicit economy is North Korea buys printing presses from, I forget where in Europe, but they buy them from Europe, and they produce basically the greatest, the greatest fraudulent $100 bills. And they're called supernotes. And so, or counterfeit, that's the word I was looking for. Fraudulent counterfeit, same thing. But they develop these hundred dollar bills that can pass as basically a regular $100 bill, even though they're made in North Korea. And whenever the US finds out about it, a lot of the security measures that are in your $100 bill are due to North Korea developing this technology and doing it very well. And so that becomes a way for them to gain money illicitly is selling those supernotes abroad. When that stops, they get into drug trafficking. So North Korea traffics a lot of amphetamines to its domestically to its people and abroad. There's a lot of illicit networks to help get it out. That makes North Korea a lot of money. And the other big one that North Korea does now with the invention of technology is cybercrime. And so they'll hack in, they've hacked into South Korean banks, the Bank of Bangladesh. Um they hacked into, they are also supposedly behind the wanna cry um cyber attack, and that nets them billions of dollars per year throughout the whole illicit, not just cybercrime. And so even though you don't see as many supernotes anymore because of the new security technologies that we've put in place, they still make billion a couple of billion, a couple of billions of dollars a year in illicit economic activity, including drug trafficking, cybercrime. Um they do some counterfeiting as well. I think they still print counterfeit South Korean currency as a way to destabilize South Korea's economy. It's not going very well for them, but they're trying. So it's they've they've turned to some dark means to gather money, much needed foreign currency.
SPEAKER_01For sure. I've been talking to people about some of the big issues that we're facing as a country. One of the areas that I've been pushing for is cyber. I mean, we're seeing that cyber is changing the frontiers of these battles, not just ideological battles, but really between countries like the United States and North Korea. And I think you mentioned the you mentioned those cyber crimes. Um that's that's a big loophole. That's a big loophole allowing them to be able to profit out of those. Um there's a lot of speculations, a lot of these different perspectives and different people sharing their insights into what they think North Korea is doing with nuclear weapons. And uh it's it's important to siphon out the ones that are uh uh not particularly helpful and particularly informative of the situation. But Ben, what is the situation with you know North Korea's strategy with these nuclear weapons? And are there any real insights into what the capabilities really are uh in uh North Korea, despite their technological resources in other areas like cyber?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so it's a really good question, and it's one that's a huge debate in the scholarly literature and the policy literature as well. I think a lot of the reason it's a debate, their capabilities are debated is because we don't, especially in the open source um arena, we don't have the information to accurately say North Korea has X amount of material, X amount of um bombs. But I think their capabilities today, they stand, I want to say somewhere in the nature of 25-ish to 100 um nuclear weapons. They have the Yongbyon nuclear facility, which is one that's been in the news a lot, is their main um their main reprocessing plant. There's been another one over the over the last few months that has popped up um near Pyongyang, the Kang Son nuclear uranium enrichment plant. And they have also looked at hydrogen weapons. Um I think a lot of the a lot of analysts have concluded they're not haven't quite crossed the threshold to develop thermonuclear weapons and hydrogen bombs. But we can't rule out that they have they don't have the technology. It's double negative, but basically we can't we can't say they don't have the technology to develop them based on their last nuclear test, but we don't think they've actually developed a um a hydrogen bomb. And then kind of going on to nuclear strategy a little bit. I think what North Korea really wants their nukes to do is serve as a deterrent. And um Vip and Nadong has a really good study of nuclear strategies in kind of smaller countries, not US, China, but he does, I think India, Pakistan, and there's one other, he doesn't touch on North Korea, but I think applying his framework is provides a lot of insight. And I think if we looked at his North Korea is really trying to develop an asymmetric escalation um nuclear capability to where if violence does break out on the peninsula and we do see a start of the Korean War or resumption of the Korean War, they will use them to go out with a bang, basically. Um, so they'll escalate the conflict to the point where they use nuclear weapons. And I think they know at the time they use nuclear weapons, there's no coming back. And I don't think they're gonna use them before they see it as a last resort.
SPEAKER_01Quick question about the technology aspect. One might wonder how the North Koreans get a hold of a lot of this technology. This is a bit broader than just the nuclear weapons, I apologize, but uh I think it's something worthy of investigation. And uh I'm not a one I don't have the you know intelligence or the oh no, I say intelligence, I mean the um the access to in intelligence, classified information about what the US knows, about how they're getting these sources of technology. Um do you have any idea of how North Korea is able to get itself this kind of technology, be able to abuse it in the ways that they do?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so this is one of the interesting um aspects of North Korea's nuclear technology, is where they get it. So a lot of the early technology comes from Russia, and in the um, I'm gonna try to get my history right here. Um, the early stages, North Korea and Russia signed a lot of agreements to share nuclear technology, to share um help train scientists in nuclear, um nuclear sciences and nuclear engineering. But a lot of North Korea's capabilities are reverse engineered from Russia. So they're their most prominent missile that's we guarantee one of the missiles we know for sure that's ready, the um the Nodong missile, is a variant of a Russian scud. And there's a couple others that are variants of Russian missiles throughout their arsenal. But one of the scary things is North Korea has been very adept at domestically producing these capabilities. And a lot of the things we see now with the thermonuclear weapon that was tested in 17 and the um the more recent missile test and the more recent ICBM test, a lot of them are domestic technology. It's them being able to import through illicit means, and I don't have access to that intelligence either, um, unfortunately, the materials required to develop these missiles, and then they are able to put the missiles together domestically. And so a lot of their newer tech appears to be made in North Korea. Their newer nuclear technology is piggybacking off of Soviet technology, but it's still made in North Korea. And I think that's one of the biggest challenges, is even if we cut off their supply lines, they still have the domestic capabilities to maintain a world-renowned and a world-threatening nuclear missile program.
SPEAKER_01Let's move on now to the last part, which it really is a hard subject to discuss, but it it is important to um to f further flush out um in detail. Which is about the human rights aspect. There's no question that the human rights conditions are terrible there. We read about the prison camps. We understand that anything that's even remotely close to the values of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution are not present in a place like North Korea. Um so Ben, for the human rights aspect, there's a lot of different things. But the first I want to touch upon is something that hits a bit closer to home here in the United States. And that really is the case on uh Otto Warmbeer, who was a young University of Virginia student for Richard from Ohio, and uh he was on a a trip to North Korea and he got arrested at the Pyongyang Airport for allegedly trying to steal a propaganda poster. Uh he was sentenced to 15 years of hard labor, and then in 2017 uh he was uh repatriated back to the United States, but he was in such terrible mental condition, and I'll never forget at that time when I first read about the news and hearing that he passed away just a few days after he returned back to the United States, it's really sad. It really is. And you know, setting aside, I think there's two aspects. Number one is obviously don't go to North Korea, certainly at this time. I mean, there was a travel advisory put in, uh, and he still went, and there's just there's there's no justice system over there. I mean, if you get if you get accused of stealing a poster, they will they will do anything they can to try to uh try to accuse you and try to show that you did it, even though you uh you did not. Um the other aspect is is really just it shows more evidence of where the North Koreans are trying to uh go in terms of human rights abuses. Uh so Ben, what are your impressions on kind of why you know the human rights issue is still uh a major obstacle? I mean, we've seen all this evidence, we've seen what they do, and yet it it's a very challenging thing, right? When you're dealing with an authoritarian regime and we're thinking of a lot of people who are suffering there, um that it's a it's a big mess, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's it's a huge mess. And our Warren BA's case, as you mentioned, it's a really sad case that hits really close to home. And it highlights a lot of things that are are tough about it. We in the outside world, being outside of North Korea, it's hard to really grasp the nature of human rights violations that occur. And there's a lot of, like you mentioned, there's a lot of documentation on it, there's a lot of defector testimony, there's a lot of satellite images of the camps. Um, and we've there's people that have put together um testimony of camps or prison camp survivors and prison camp guards um as just one aspect of it. But it goes, it goes deeper than the prison camps. And it's I think the reason it's so hard is a lot of the human rights violations are so crucial to the regime's survival. And whether it's um denial of freedom, freedom of movement, if you want to travel, and even within North Korea, you have to get a permit from your from the party to travel, even to see your grandparents in another city. Um if you want to, if you speak out against the regime for whatever reason, you can go to a political prison camp. If um you cross the border into China, you're going to a political prison camp. Um and the China one's a little different now. They've relaxed some rules on it. If you go to China and do commerce as a way to kind of bring food back and you don't really have any contact with anyone, you may get three to five years in kind of a lower security prison camp or a lower brutality prison camp. I don't know exactly the best way to say that because they're all brutal. Um but if you go with and you have any suspect dealings, or you meet with someone who's South Korean or someone who's Westerner, or even a Christian, or um somebody who could help get you out and get you to South Korea or something, even if you deny them access and you stow toe the party line, you're still sent to prison camp for life at best. Um I think a lot of it is it's become so ingrained in North Korean political society that you don't do these things. And restricting the right to movement helps the regime stay in power because you can't move, you can't share ideas. Restricting access to technology restricts who has the information. It makes the regime, the regime's propaganda so effective because there's nothing to counter it in the outlying areas. And the only people who know different are the people that are already co-opted by the regime or that already are loyal to the regime. And so you're gonna see you're not gonna see as much defection from the party line, no matter what they see, anyways, or what they say. And so I think that's why it's so hard to take them away, is it's so ingrained in how North Korea operates and how the regime stays in power and how the regime stays secure, that it's something they're gonna continue to deny because it's they're just gonna say it's life in North Korea, and that's the politics, that's our country, you don't have any right to dictate how we do it. They deny the existence of prison camps, even though there's about 200,000 people in them. And I unfortunately don't think we can ever say that we were successful in solving the North Korean problem without solving the human rights problem, and I don't think that'll happen until there's a change in regime in North Korea, unfortunately.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I personally when I hear about the stories of these North Korean defectors, it's it's really a remarkable feat that they've accomplished, and they have moved to different parts of Of the world. Some are in South Korea, others maybe in the United States or uh somewhere else in the world, maybe Malaysia. And the stories really really are I think it's a sign that we we still have a long way to go on this, don't we? Um and there's a lot of suffering out there that isn't reported, but that doesn't mean that doesn't exist. And I know it sounds like an obvious fact, but it I think it's a constant reminder that we can never stray away from human uh uh protecting human rights. I think the work that a number of organizations have done, a lot of governments have done to try to bring out and amplify the voice of these defectors is really touching. I just want to ask kind of your personal take on you know these North Korean defectors who have who risked it all. In fact, many have uh have a lot of questions about uh where their uh family is right now. I mean, it's you can imagine, oh at least I don't I actually I don't think we can ever imagine just how how brutal is when uh someone defects and the North Korean authorities find out. So I just want to kind of ask your take on uh kind of the the sentiment uh and the need for protecting human rights.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um I I will always say that we will have we need to protect human rights no matter what. Um I think the US, the European Union, all the European nations as individual nations, not just as the Union. Um and the Western world really is behind it behind it. And same with South Korea and Japan, I think, as well. Um but just to kind of I'm gonna I'll answer your question, but one thing I think is big to do is to put the exact human rights that North Korea abuses on the record, and just as a like broad stroke, I mean, there's denial of movement, denial of free speech, I mean, some even denial of free thought, there's a lack of a free press, there's um arbitrary detention and detainment, lack of religion. There's can't even think of any more. There's plenty more. And for those that really are interested in it, I recommend um Sandra Fahy's new book, uh Dying for Rights. She really goes into the history of it and really dissects the Commission of Inquiry report really well and does a really good job of putting them on the record. And also holding North Korea to task for denying that human rights exist. Getting back to defectors, I think anyone who gets out of that situation is an amazing human being. Um, one of the research projects I'm working on now is using defector testimony to really build an image of North Korea and how it basically how it co-opts, how it uses um kind of cultic personality, cultic um aspects within its propaganda and its politics to maintain its survival and reading through them, it's they're heart-wrenching stories. Um, if you leave and you get out of North Korea, a lot of defectors um find it hard to integrate somewhere else. Uh, you're taught 20 years, however long you're in North Korea, you're taught you know, the West is the the enemy. North Korea is the greatest country in the world, and we can do no wrong in North Korea. The Kims are the greatest people to ever live, and then you're brought out of it and you're brought into a world of competition that you never knew existed. You're brought into a world of capitalism and money exchanging and people having ambitions and wanting to do things for themselves. And it's really hard for people to transition into. And it's a hard life. There's a lot of defectors in South Korea that don't fare too well. Um, there was a recent story of a North Korean defector who her and her son basically starved to death with about a thousand won left in their bank account. And to put that in perspective, it's less than a dollar in their bank account because they were found it hard to find jobs. They found they're discriminated against because they have grown up in this weird place that nobody really understands. They don't understand capitalism, capitalistic culture as well. And then not to mention in North Korea, if you leave up to three generations of your family can be punished. Um and if you defect, that means you're thrown in a prison camp, a political prison camp, um, and never heard from again. And the sad part is if you have if any of those family members have kids, so if you have a brother or sister that has a kid in a prison camp, um that kid will spend its entire life in a prison camp and will never know the outside world. And it's an unfortunate existence. It's really sad. I'm trying hard not to tear up um just talking about it. But I think it's something we need to understand. It's tough for North Koreans in North Korea and to get out, but once they get out, it's even hard for them outside. And I think without having I mean, South Korea's done some work with um the Hannawan complex and helping teach North Koreans to integrate into society. But South Korea could do a lot better. And one of the things they've done recently is they've started restricting to some extent um the access that some human rights organizations have to defectors at HANA One. Um specifically, the North Korean database is the biggest one that documents North Korean human rights in South Korea. And I think until I wholly disagree with that, I think the Moon administration should really work on providing the resources to help document those human rights, to help document those stories and to help keep that in the narrative. Because once we lose that, I think we lose everything.
SPEAKER_01I agree. That's so well said, Ben. Really, really well said. I was just gonna real quickly add, uh I think for the State Department, for any other agencies out there that can help, uh, we really need that. Um, and we can never forego that for other reasons. Our our values just can't they can't change regardless of the different circumstances that we live in, um, our commitment to those human rights values will never change. That's why we have a constitution. That's why we have a declaration of independence, because we need to put on the record and to live out those values that we all espouse. The last major topic I want to get to today is on COVID-19. Um, we've touched upon COVID uh a little bit on the recent episode about China, but what has been the COVID-19 narrative and situation, at least from what we know now, uh, that's going on in North Korea at the time?
SPEAKER_00So if you ask North Korea, they have no COVID-19 cases. Um if you ask anyone who watches North Korea with any respectability, um, they don't buy into that party line. Um, so when COVID broke out, and kind of give a little bit more of the the history here of COVID. Sounds weird that I just call it history of COVID, since it's still going on. Um but when COVID first broke out in China, North Korea was the first country to close its borders and it draconian no one in, no one out. Um that's because a lot of North Korean tourism comes from China. A lot of Chinese people will go into North Korea for tourism. It generates hundreds of millions of dollars for the economy of North Korea when Chinese tourists come. So closing the border was a tough decision. And since then, there have been reports of um some lockdowns in certain places. There's been reports of about a couple thousand people in North Korea in quarantine. There was also a report that a North Korean who contracted the virus was shot and killed. That's one way to keep the virus from spreading. Kill the person who has it. Um but I think there's not enough information to really know what the current situation is within in terms of how the virus is spreading, um, how many fatal if there are any fatalities, how many. Um, but one thing, the two things that it shows is the weakness of North Korea's healthcare system. Um North Korea is not prepared for a massive outbreak, especially something as lethal as COVID. And they're doing everything they can, including closing their borders, really being strict on travel, um kind of covertly getting some tests from South Korea and the US to ensure that nobody's got it, putting, even if you cough once, putting you in quarantine. Um I don't know if that's actually true. That's but they're very draconian uh quarantine laws within North Korea for people who supposedly have the virus. So I think they're trying their best to minimize the impact on their healthcare system. Um, there's not enough information to know exactly what that impact is. The other big impact it's had is on the economy, um, as with every country, but it's very acute with North Korea. A lot of Chinese trade has dropped. There's um a shortage of imported foods is being reported now. And so it's making it harder for the citizens to really live their daily lives and to survive. And it's also making it tough for the leadership because they have to tow this line of we're very resilient, we don't have the virus, we never will, never have had it, with the reality of if if it does come to our borders, it's going to be impossible to control once the outbreak starts. So it's really I think been a case study in how to mitigate a virus really from the start. Unfortunately, I think it's a very draconian denial of human rights on a level that is bad even for North Korea. So I think it's something we couldn't the outside world couldn't do, but they are taking steps to try to minimize the impact of an outbreak in North Korea.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, we we were just earlier discussing the human rights aspect, just talk about adding insult to injury, you know, adding salt to the wound, however you want to portray the situation. Um and the economic aspect really, I mean, it it just you just can't ignore it. But at the same time, the the way that an economy keeps going, though, is that at least in in this day and age with COVID-19, you can't just shut it down. I mean, we've seen you know and seen how difficult that is on the livelihoods of so many people. And unfortunately, the draconian nature of North Korea really only makes it only makes it that much worse on the on the full full lockdown and the you know the way things go. Now, as we kind of wrap up the episode, Ben, uh I want to take this opportunity to reflect a bit about what we've talked about today. Uh we've covered uh the leaders, the economy, uh the uh about nuclear weapons, and there's a lot more to discuss, of course. There's uh probably more on uh the listed activities and uh human rights and COVID-19 and all the rest. Um as we reflect on these issues via you know watching its principles, which you are familiar with, especially since you were on the previous episode before, um tying in those principles of you know patriotism, faith, national unity, education, fiscal responsibility, civility, what are some of the key lessons you believe are of utmost importance to people all around the world when it comes to trying to figure out the best outcome for the countless people who are suffering in North Korea today?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think the biggest, if I had to tie in the two main wash of two main principles I think would apply would be education and civility. And I think one, education because North Korea is really a misunderstood country. Um, you see it all the time in the news whenever North Korea tests a nuke or test a missile. It's always Kim Juggun's irrational. He's doing these things because he wants to, he's defying sanctions. And I don't think they bring in the North Korean calculus of it, where it's it is a defensive measure, it is a deterrent, and we need to remain strong. And I think bringing that education aspect of it can really help us shape the narrative in a way that's more productive to actually solving the problem. And then civility um ties in, I think, really well with the human rights aspect. And a lot of um North Koreans that do escape are sometimes chastised, especially in South Korea, they're kind of discriminated against. And the same when they come to the U.S., it's hard for them to get in reintegrate into a society that's almost a complete 180 from what you're used to for 20, 30 years. And so being able to sit back and say, I understand where you're coming from, let me hear your story, let me let me help you to let me do what I need to help you rather than let me do what I think is best for you is something we really need to move forward with. And get rid of the notions that every North Korean is a goose stepping follower of Kim Jong-un, everyone in North Korea follows the leaders. The reality is a lot more complicated. And I think until we educate ourselves about that reality, and until we're very civil and kind of humbled with that reality, it I don't think we're gonna get anywhere.
SPEAKER_01On the public education aspects, I think if any if there's any foreign policy class out there and they don't discuss North Korea, especially when it comes to U.S. foreign policy, I think that's a real shame in my opinion.
SPEAKER_00I because that is completely agree with that one.
SPEAKER_01Right. And and I think there's a just anyway, the number of steps that we can take, I think. And and Ben, I want to credit you today for coming on to the show and for sharing all so much of what you've researched and what you know. And and I can tell you that we are just getting started on uh what I hope will be a journey where we can bring people more freedom, more prosperity, because it has to happen. I uh we've mentioned the challenges, uh, but as a nation in the United States, we don't let those challenges defeat us, right? And we always set a higher standard. We don't accept these human rights violations, we don't accept uh those difficult livelihoods that people have to go through. We don't accept the totalitarianism and the suffering that has gone uh too uh gone too far and too long. And uh so anyway, I want to thank you for coming on. And uh I just I just can't wait to track what you get to do in the future when it comes to your publications and your doctoral program, which I wish you good luck so much on. And uh it's it's gonna be a big step for you. And uh and I just I'm just excited to keep connecting with you and uh and to be able to bring on more people onto the show to reflect these different uh fora of here in this North Korean uh kind of discussion and uh forum. I think it's just it's just a really extraordinary episode. So thank you so much, Vim, for coming on.
SPEAKER_00Not a problem. It's always a pleasure to be here. And I want to do one thing before before um we sign off.
SPEAKER_01Yes, we want to know more about how what we can do to help those in need in North Korea.
SPEAKER_00So for those who really want to learn about the human rights aspect of North Korea and about um North Korea in general, I was gonna try to provide some resources um that I think are key. Um, if you want to learn more about it, the North Korean database that I mentioned in South Korea does a really good job documenting human rights in North Korea. They've published a white paper on human rights and religion every year. Um, South Korea's Ministry of Unification has some good work. Um for those that really want to make a difference, there's no better way to make a difference than supporting liberty in North Korea, which strives to get North Koreans out of China and reintegrate them into society and into a more prosperous world. And if you really want to make a difference and you really want to help North Koreans out, that's where I would turn to is really turn to those educational places and the NGOs like Liberty in North Korea. And there's a couple of Christian organizations that I don't know the names off the top of my head, but that really work on the ground, helping change change lives on a day-to-day basis. I would highly recommend you check them out, support them, support their work. And I think that's our first step in really bringing this to a the close that needs to come.
SPEAKER_01Fantastic. Uh, I'll make sure to link those in the show notes below. I'll work with Ben on that uh to get those links out to the audience. But I want to thank our guests today and for a great conversation. I hope you enjoy this episode. Remember, make sure you subscribe and share uh this podcast with your friends and family. I hope to see you next time on the next episode of Friends and Fellows Citizens.
