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Friends & Fellow Citizens
#209: Reviving a Forgotten Founder's Penmanship of the Revolution feat. Dr. Jane Calvert
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You might have heard the expression "the pen is mightier than the sword." So who "wrote" the Revolution and has been considered the Penman of the American Revolution? John Dickinson was the man behind many critical pillars of our country's founding, and some believe he has been forgotten for too long.
Dr. Jane Calvert, author and scholar who runs the John Dickinson Writings Project, is at the forefront of illuminating Dickinson's legacy today. Hear how Dickinson's political wit and penmanship made this Founding Father a celebrity of his time and a brilliant thinker behind the U.S. Constitution.
Learn more about Jane Calvert at her website drjanecalvert.org!
Click here to purchase her book Penman of the Founding on Amazon!
Support the work of the John Dickinson Writings Project at jdproject.org!
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IMPORTANT NOTE/DISCLAIMER: All views expressed by the host are presented in his personal capacity and do not officially represent the views of any affiliated organizations. All views presented by guests are solely those of the interviewees themselves and may or may not represent the views of their affiliated organizations, the host, Friends & Fellow Citizens, and/or The George Washington Institute.
Another kind of myth about Dickinson is that he was just, you know, completely opposed to uh war and things military and and was just trying to avert war, you know, uh uh regardless of like what that might cost America. And that's not true either. He was a really a master strategist. Um, and and this is something that's very much unappreciated about him.
SPEAKER_01Patriotism, faith, national unity, education, fiscal responsibility, civility, the values that define America. Fascinating stories and talks from America-loving patriots dedicated to preserving freedom, opportunity, and justice. Welcome to the Friends and Fellow Citizens Podcast. Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode here on the Friends and Fellow Citizens. I'm your host, Sherman Tailowski. Thank you all so much for joining me for this interview episode. We're continuing our theme of America 250 and really the roots of our podcast about Washington and the founders and the principles of Watchin's Farewell Address. We're going to be talking about one of the founding fathers, one you might not have heard of before, one of the most important ones out there. Before we get started though, first of all, welcome to all of you who are joining us for the first time. I hope you enjoy our incredible content here, whether it's interview, shows, solo episodes. We've got a lot of interesting content coming up over the next season, next year of the Friends and Fellow Citizens. And if you can believe it, we're right, we just passed our year six of Friends and Fellow Citizens. So that means that we're got we got some great momentum going here. Before I get to our main content and introduce our guests, as always, a big thank you to our Patreon supporters. I really appreciate what they do to help and keep the show going. And if you're enjoying this experience and want to get into some podcast merch or other benefits that we're rolling out over the next several months, be sure to join our Patreon page down in the show notes below. And if you are on YouTube and you want to subscribe to your favorite YouTube channels, well, be sure be sure to check out our YouTube channel and subscribe so that you get notifications when new episodes come out. We've got more video episodes come out over the next several months as well. And now let's get right into our episode. Alright, everybody. I'm very excited to welcome Dr. Jane Calvert onto the podcast. Jane, thank you so much for coming on our podcast today.
SPEAKER_00My pleasure.
SPEAKER_01Well, uh Jane, first of all, I have to say something something about your last name. So I went to the Calvert School uh for my homeschooling part of my elementary/slash middle school time. So uh instantly I connect with that name. And so obviously uh obviously I'll name after Lord Calvert, a very famous figure in Maryland history. But obviously, the main reason why I want you to be on the show is because we're gonna be talking about somebody who is one of those founders who just doesn't get enough recognition. And I feel like it's always it's a lifelong quest when you're trying to understand the founders and you understand the maybe the basics of Washington, the Jeffersons, the Franklins, and all, but there's one man who really sticks out, and I have to admit, even I don't know as much about Dickinson as I probably should, and it is John Dickinson. And before we get to this gentleman here, and of course he's in the background there looking over your shoulder, uh, Jane, first of all, can you just share with us a bit about your background?
SPEAKER_00Um, yeah, so um I guess my interest in this material um maybe stems from the fact that my father uh was a poly thy professor at a small college, and you know, kind of raised me to think about um these things. And um I went to a small Quaker college in Indiana, and uh then when I started my graduate program at the University of Chicago, um, I wanted to teach, and my area of interest was the same as my father's, which was civic education and uh, you know, um American principles, government, history, that sort of thing. And um and uh actually uh I should back up just a little bit and say I I went from this college, which was very uh Quaker school, very, very far left to my first job after college was working at a neoconservative public policy think tank. Uh and so I it sort of it was like from one extreme to the other. And um I thought both sides were really mistaken on a lot of points. And yet it really raised questions for me about how Americans, how they understand themselves in relation to one another and in relation to the government. What do they see as their rights and responsibilities? Why, and and frankly, why do they treat each other so badly? And and so uh I went to graduate school to get answers to some of these questions and to understand and then you know to teach um at the college level. And um, and so that's how I got into studying intellectual history.
SPEAKER_01Wow. I mean, uh I imagine that with going to grad school, that that's really what it's all about, trying to look for answers, right? Trying to see what has been uh tested. And uh I'm currently in my doctoral program, and it's kind of shocking how there are times when you feel like there's a lot that has been studied about a subject, then you realize uh the the study, the state of the field's not so great, maybe not as great as we like to think. And so I I just relate to that in that sense. Now, Jane, I want to go now go to about the founders, your interest in the founders in general, but now honing in on John Dickinson, because you could have joined the Jefferson crowd, you could have joined a lot of different crowds that have worked on these different founders, and and there's obviously tons of books about the the big ones there. Why the founders and why John Dickinson specifically?
SPEAKER_00Well, I actually wasn't interested in the founders. I I I was not interested in, I had no intention of studying history of the revolutionary or founding era. I was going to study colonial history and specifically colonial Pennsylvania. Um so it is a huge surprise to me that I ended up uh studying a founder in the revolutionary era, not at all what I had as my plan. Um in fact, I was going to, after my my my first book or my book on you know Quaker constitutional theory, um, I was going to move on and work on history of animal rights. So yeah, like I really had no interest. In part, it wasn't that I wasn't interested, it was that I didn't think I had anything to contribute. And and I and I generally wasn't interested in the founders, I think, mainly because you know, apart from the fact that they were so studied, um, you know, it's just that none, you know, apart from sort of, you know, the the the general things that you know uh the principles and and those interesting things, I wasn't none of them like held much interest for me as people. Um and um and so uh so Dickinson came about um really just because out of a kind of a sense of curiosity, that as I was studying colonial Pennsylvania and getting closer to the revolutionary era, his name kept coming up in the in the like the the 50s, but more the 1760s. And I was just like, who is this person and why is his name kept, you know, why does his name keep coming up connected with Quakers? And so I tried to find out more about him, and what I found was very unsatisfying. Um and the the more the more I learned about Quakers, um, the more I kind of got to admire them. Um and and yet like I never had any desire to become a Quaker, even though I not only admired them, but agreed with a lot of their their their you know, sort of theology and and um the way they live their lives. Um and and then it seemed to me that that's that also described Dickinson and so long, okay. Well, you know, maybe maybe he can be described in these terms as a Quaker fellow traveler. And that's that was the key. Um that was the key to sort of unlocking the mysteries of uh well what what people what other scholars considered to be mysterious or perplexing or confusing or contradictory, could um mostly be explained within the context of um sort of a Quaker worldview, even though Dickinson, to be very clear, was himself not a Quaker.
SPEAKER_01I was in Philadelphia a few months ago, and you know, learning about the Quakers is really interesting. And uh, and you know, I understand everyone from William Penn to how Philadelphia was constructed and all. I mean, there's there's so much fascination. Uh would it be fair to say, Gene, that that in some ways, maybe not a direct way, but maybe John Dickinson and the found you uh as a founding father himself.
SPEAKER_00Well, you know, it's funny you should say that because I mean, you know, yeah, in in a way, um I I kind of like as I've gotten perspective on my career, um, you know, at at this at this stage, you know, I I really I really feel like Dickinson like was the thing I was I didn't I I was looking for, but didn't know I was looking for. Like he sort of answers all the questions that I had that could that sort of propelled me into graduate school. And and so, you know, he sort of you know has all these his his life is is sort of a model for civic engagement. And um and uh and so yes, I I I mean I think I think that's not you know not a uh you know not a wrong way to put it.
SPEAKER_01Uh well uh it's it seems like that's that that's a theme that I found with some other uh scholars of of these uh of these signers because every single one has a unique story. Now some are more prominent than others, I think in part because some signers have more of a record that's available in terms of letters and papers. There were some that just didn't want to have people to know about them, you know, to write about them for various reasons. And and so, and Gene, I want to now talk about uh the about Dickinson uh in terms of this public memory aspect, because uh like I've said there's there's a number of m famous founders there, and yet there's still this issue when whenever we talk about the founders, where there's just those founders that are forgotten, right? And I I want to say forgotten in a general sense, but also forgotten in quotes, because obviously they they they have had a extensive record, it's just we haven't there they don't have the same stature as maybe some other uh founders there. Why do you think founders like Dickinson have been forgotten, whether that be in academia or just in public public memory in general?
SPEAKER_00Well, first I'll say that there are no other founders like Dickinson. Um and um and I I'm I'm not being facetious in that. Um it is very true that most Americans today have not heard of him, but in his day, um there was he was unsurpassed. Um in his uh he was America's first celebrity. And it is true that Benjamin Franklin was famous. Um uh he was known as a scientist. Um he was not known, he was as a politician. In fact, he was a pretty terrible politician. And um, and and he was he was famous, though he was not a celebrity. Um, and and and Dickinson was someone who he had fans, he had haters, um, he had he sort of had all of the trappings of what we see today um in celebrities. Um, you know, people kind of, you know, they idolized him, they hung on his every word, they used his his words and his likeness to sell their products. Um they sort of you know used his brand to um to make money. Um and uh you know, by naming their ships or their taverns or their stud horses after him, um, and you know, sell or to sell their their fabric or whatever it was. And um and you know, really, you know, eventually, you know, I would say only, you know, uh George Washington ultimately surpassed Dickinson. Um, you know, maybe also Franklin, because you know, Franklin was like sort of the quintessential self-promoter. Um, but but uh it's that it's that's sort of a close one with Dickinson. But Dickinson, during his entire lifetime, you know, after he after the publication of the letters from a farmer in Pennsylvania, which was uh which were in uh uh 1767-68, um, really for the rest of his life, he was uh continued to be um one of America's best known figures. And it wasn't until um certain historians got a hold of uh got a hold of of his legacy and sort of butchered it that uh he fell out of the American consciousness.
SPEAKER_01So it seems like Dickinson kind of went viral there uh in a different sense.
SPEAKER_00And in fact, he not only did not only that, um uh he he I I like to joke, he he he wrote America's first number one hit single, um The Liberty Song. And this was America's first patriotic song, and it gave us our first national motto, which is by uniting, we stand, by dividing, we fall. And and so, yes, I mean, he really had a knack for being able to um, you know, sort of reach the public um in ways that they could really like um that really resonated with them. And um, and yet he was also not a he was not a self-promoter, and he tended to like to work kind of behind the scenes and let other people kind of take credit um and and and and you know he sort of he sort of kept himself uh in in the background whenever he could.
SPEAKER_01That's such an interesting point, Jane, because uh when we think of the the Sires, there they're in whether people were within the hall within the chambers of Independence Hall, whether they were somewhere else in the colonies, so every everyone wants to feel like they're part of something larger. And I think with the fact that you had a group of very intelligent men coming together to uh for to craft these these documents, you need to have that bridge between whichever whoever is leading uh the Continental Congress, whoever is leading the colonies and uh the people. And I think it's uh it's interesting because I do think there's some founders that I'm thinking in my mind where you know Ben is like as brilliant as Brent Ben Franklin is, I don't see him as like the the the main bridge between uh so say the average Joe in in uh in Massachusetts uh and the Continental Congress, for example, but maybe someone like John Dickinson, as you as you're speaking about, understands that connection there. It's not just about the deliberations within uh the signing room there, it's about the larger uh the the larger connection that we all can share uh given that the colonies also have their own divisions and all within among one another. And so uh Gene, I want to talk about uh go back to Diggins' early life. Now, one of the things about Diggins is that he was one of the wealthiest people um uh back in those days. Um growing up though, how did he get interested in politics? I mean, did he have to go down that route or did he have a different path that you probably would have gone on?
SPEAKER_00Well, so um I think he was uh his parents always envisioned that he would um be a lawyer. Um that was something uh that was a his parents were Quakers, and that was a way to do good in the world. And and so um, and his his his three older brothers, um uh half-brothers, I should say, um I think it was three, uh kind of all died um uh, you know, trying to get their legal education. And uh and so Dickinson was sort of always going to go to, you know, to get his legal training, uh first in Philadelphia and then further training in London. Um but I think it's also as kind of foreordained that um the that gentlemen uh and Dickinson was uh was a gentleman in that like he you know his he and his family owned a substantial amount of property, and so he did not have to work. Um, so he didn't have to be a lawyer to make money. He he had plenty of uh family money and land. Um, but you know, he wanted to do good in the world, so he was an attorney. And um, but uh but gentlemen were also by default uh statesmen. They were politicians. Um in America during this period uh it was a uh a fairly strict hierarchy. Um and uh those at the top of the hierarchy were the were the leaders. They were the ones who made policy and passed laws and and and made the laws and enforced the laws, and and then the the they were and they were considered the upper sorts of people, and then there were the middling and the lower sorts of people, and and the lower down you were on the hierarchy, you know, you were there to do the manual labor and you were there to obey. And so, as the son of a gentleman, uh Dickinson always knew that he would go and into politics and be a statesman. It was his duty as a gentleman to serve. Um, and so um he always knew he would do that. And in fact, he he started doing so in 1759. Um, it was just, it was just what uh what one did as a gentleman, who was part of his obligation as a gentleman to serve, um, you know, to serve and protect the lower sorts of people, and then the lower sorts of people would would also serve the upper sorts of people and they would obey.
SPEAKER_01Interesting. Wow. And I imagine that the I mean you mentioned that his parents were Quakers. Uh, in how how did the Quaker life uh uh change him or affect him in terms of how he behaved? And and given that there were also, of course, other uh other sects, right? Other um you know the Puritans and others, uh how how didn't his Quaker life uh help him uh with just his person there?
SPEAKER_00Well there no there were no more Puritans at this time. Puritan Puritanism more or less died out in 1720. Um but but there the legacy of the sort of the the the you know sort of puritanical culture and legacy of Puritanism certainly survived in Congregationalism and Presbyterianism. Um but but uh and and so in each, you know, and you're right to say that you know the many different you know sects or denominations, um, and you know, in the north it was more sort of you know the the the the descendants of Puritans and then the middle colonies there were lots of Quakers. And um, and so you know Dickinson, you know, his his his family from way back was were on both sides were were Quakers, and um and and so he was raised um raised as a Quaker, um, even though he never became a member of the meeting. Um and so he was uh you know given a um uh uh a very um broad and deep liberal arts education. So, you know, he he was you know taught um you know all the sort of the classics and political uh political thought and history and literature and poetry and of course the Bible, and and his parents were his role models for virtuous behavior. And uh, and so he was he was raised to care about the well-being of the those less fortunate than he was. He was very much aware of his privilege as a uh you know, as one of the upper sorts, and uh and very much aware that he had an obligation to make sure that those people who were less fortunate um that they had the protection of the laws and and that they had representation. Um, and so he did a lot of pro bono work for for uh poor people. Um and And people who were not favored by the system, you know, African American people or women, for example. And so you really see this Quaker upbringing in the fact that he believed that the well, the government was there to protect the lower sorts of people, and especially widows and orphans, and that he dedicated a lot of his time as an attorney to cases, pro bono cases, for the protection of not just widows and orphans, but also, for example, you know, a poor man who'd been accused, falsely accused of murder, or uh, you know, an apprentice who had been beaten by his master, you know, that sort of thing. And so, you know, his Quaker values really came through in those ways. Um, and then also in his political thought, um, uh on a much more sort of you know um elevated level, but we could get into that later as you as you like.
SPEAKER_01For sure. And and that's that's really, really fascinating because when I read about the the the signers, and you know, part of our series is going through the signers one by one, and we're on the finally on the Virginia delegation, uh going from Massachusetts all the way down south. And uh, you know, it's so some it's often sometimes it's hard to find where exactly the signers got their principles, but the fact that Dickinson had those very rooted principles, I think is is very key. And um, it seems like in in maybe in some ways he was a man well ahead of his time, too.
SPEAKER_00Uh it's uh Yeah, I I mean yes and no. Um so i it is very tempting to sort of uh you know think about Dickinson in those ways. And um, but you know, that that we have to be careful about that because um there is the the way we understand the world today is so very different from how people at the time uh you know in the 18th century understood the world. And and so, you know, this his world was much more um shaped by, well, like this hierarchy that I discussed. So, you know, it was not a given that all um, you know, all um men or people were created equal. Um now Quakers did believe this, but but the but they believed, you know, that people were spiritually equal and maybe not necessarily like civilly or civically equal. Um I mean, I think Dickinson was one of the ones who was coming to believe that, but um but but we don't want to make the mistake of thinking about the founders in terms of modern day political categories like liberal or progressive or conservative, or you know, those they just those things don't map well on to the 18th century. And I'm not suggesting that that's where you were going, just that that's a cautionary thing that listeners should keep in mind. And and so saying Dickinson was ahead of his time, yes, in some ways it does appear that way, and and and I think I can say that that's true to a certain extent. But on the other hand, you know, if you know Dickinson believed uh that black people uh and women and poor people that they had rights that deserved to be protecting, you know, he was he was maybe just looking backwards to his Quaker forebears and not necessarily forward to what would come if that makes sense. So in a sense, you know, does it so can we still say that he was ahead of his time, or was he just thinking within a Quaker tradition?
SPEAKER_01Oh, that's really interesting. And I think you you bring up a good point, right? Because particularly when I see some of these modern interpretations of the founders, right? We only see it through 2026 or just any year within the just in our era. And I will just say it, and I can't believe there's some people who make those kinds of leaps because you know imagine if we were uh how we're gonna be judged in 300 years, right?
SPEAKER_00And I think there's if we make it that far.
SPEAKER_01Um and so I think there's there's a lot where I think people are are and there are just some people out there that particularly within the the political sphere where they they use uh the founders to promote some kind of ideology, right? Or some kind of view that's either not historically accurate or it's it's really not making fair comparisons.
SPEAKER_00And I think uh historians historians call that presentism. Um that that that we that when you judge the past by the values and worldview of the present. And it's uh, you know, it it's very difficult even for historians to sort of, you know, we say, you know, take off your 20 21st century glasses and look at the past on its own terms. It's very difficult to do. And even the best historians fall into the trap of presentism.
SPEAKER_01And uh I I don't have any confidence that government's gonna be do much do do much better on that.
SPEAKER_00So uh no, no, politicians and judges should not be trying to do oh journalists. Politicians, judges, and journalists should not try to play a historian. It doesn't, it doesn't it doesn't end well for history.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_01It becomes a bad story at the end of the yeah, it becomes a bad story, yes, right. Um well uh Jay, I want to now go to uh Dickinson now the revolution. And uh the other thing that I've noticed about the signers is that, and again, it goes against this I was called myth, where we just think that the founders just all just woke up one day and it's like you know, Eureka, I uh let's have independence now. You know, if it only was that easy. Uh but obviously the the issue of independence had uh was very debated. Um, even as there were a number of things that were going wrong for uh with what the British were doing and and all, uh there was still a lot of debate on what to do, right? What should should we should we ask the king one more time to you know please the uh please reconsider, maybe take his pills or something and you know kind of get to the get to the table here. Uh but then there was someone who's like, no, I'm I'm I'm out, I'm not, I'm having this right now. Where where did Dickinson lie in this within this spectrum of independence early on?
SPEAKER_00Well, um it's no secret that Dickinson opposed independence until you know through July 2nd, um well, no, July 1st, 1776. He uh did not want it, did not well I should say it's not that he was against independence as such. He thought that the timing was wrong and that if independence happened, it should be gradual. Um and so he he he actually you know actively opposed independence, you know, up until you know he gave his final speech against it on July 1st, 1776. That that is well known. Um, but what most people don't recognize are two things. One is that um independence was not openly debated until after Thomas Paine published Common Sense in early January 1776. So um uh despite uh things that John Adams said after the fact, the this the Second Continental Congress in the summer of 1775 was you know, independence was not mentioned openly. Um if it was mentioned, it was mentioned only in sort of the the darkest corners in secret by a few delegates. Um so so um you know so independence itself was um you know something that happened much later than a lot of people, uh a lot of people think. Now, okay, um, but um, and then I'll I'll say another another kind of myth about Dickinson is that he was just you know completely opposed to uh war and things military and and was just trying to avert war, you know, uh uh regardless of like what that might cost America. And that's not true either. So in reality, um uh Dickinson was um, yes, he was trying to avert um a revolution and and trying to avert uh separation from Britain. And we can talk about why that was the case in a moment, but but but so he was trying to avert those two things, but he was a really a master strategist. Um and and this is something that's very much unappreciated about him. Um he was a uh an astute politician and um and he had uh exceedingly good diplomatic skills, and so uh he basically in the second Congress um orchestrated things so that um America would be doing several things simultaneously. Um he proposed uh uh basically a three-part approach. So this is after um after uh the battles of Lexington and Concord, and when the uh the Congress started meeting in on May 10th of 1775, and Dickinson proposed uh basically a tripart plan. He said um that uh that they should um uh they should uh write another petition. Well, actually, they should first prepare for war. Second, they should um uh write another petition, and third, they should send uh agents to negotiate in in Britain. And uh and so um, you know, all of the it was sort of you know a no-brainer that the Congress was like, of course, we're gonna prepare for war. We've been attacked, like we need to, you know, we need to get a uh, you know, we need a con we need an army, we need a leader of that army, um, and so, you know, and we need, you know, not just uh uh an army, but militias for all for the colonies. So, you know, yes, that was a no-brainer. Um petitioning was uh that created some impatience among the some of the some of the delegates, some of the more radical delegates. Um, and they said, why would we want to do that? We've done that. Our petition was you know rejected before from for the from the previous Congress in 1774. Why would we do that again? Um and and Dickinson had some you know really critical reasons for wanting uh a second petition to the king, and with what's now known as the Olive Branch Petition. And it it was, yes, it was to secure um, you know, an accommodation, reconciliation with Britain. Yes, that was one goal, but that was not the goal that Dickinson thought was most realistic, and it was not necessarily um, you know, he didn't believe it was necessarily going to happen. And so he had some other goals why he wanted a second petition. One was uh was to delay. Um, if there was going to be a war, which it looked very much like there was going to be, um, that uh that there should be a uh a delay. And and because he said uh uh delays should be courted in defense of wars. So because it would give America time to prepare. So a delay. But also there was uh there were many segments uh of uh the population in America that did not want war and did not want independence. And so he so he knew that if war was going to happen and if if independence was going to happen, that America needed to be as unified as possible and people had to get on board with supporting the war. And so um so he wanted he, you know, and the only way they would do that is if they thought that the Congress had done everything possible to try to get reconciliation. And also, um, if they wanted foreign allies, um, those allies would want to see that that the colonists had done everything they could to try to um you know to try to solve the the conflict with Britain peacefully. Okay. Um now the the third thing, sending agents to negotiate, that never really was the least popular and it didn't really get much traction and nothing ever really came of it. Um but that's the thing that the the uh members of Congress objected to the most. But okay, so we've got you know agreement in the Congress. Uh so they they they voted on these resolutions. It was unanimous to prepare for war, it was unanimous to have a second petition to the king. And so then uh John Jay was going to write the first the second petition to the king, um, but he wrote something that contained um it kind of gave away too much. And so Dickinson didn't like that. So he stepped in and he rewrote um the Olive Branch petition um to um uh you know to serve the purposes that he wanted it to serve. And then um Thomas Jefferson was enlisted to write um uh uh, well, not at first, but he was brought in to to write this uh what's what's called the Declaration on the Causes and Necessity of taking up arms. And this was uh supposed to be more or less kind of a declaration to the world that America was prepared to fight. But Jefferson wrote this draft that was kind of meek and kind of ineffectual. And Dickinson knew that these two documents, um, well, mostly historians have considered these two documents separately, and they have known that Dickinson drafted the Olive Branch petition, but a lot of them, you know, still to this day do not know that Dickinson wrote, uh, you know, uh he wrote a revised version of the Declaration on Taking Up Arms, and he he made it, he, he, he made it very bellicose and belligerent and fiery and rousing. And and so a lot of people still don't know that he wrote that. And they they consider these two documents as separate. And then they're like, well, how could that be? How could he how could he write this very meek and humble all of branch petition and then this fiery declaration on taking up arms? Well, he did it because they were supposed to function in tandem with one another. That the uh that on the one hand, they would have this meek, inoffensive petition that would do all those things that I that I talked about. And then on the other hand, they would have this um this very fiery uh declaration. And so the Dickinson said, we will petition like like men, like Freemen, with you know, an olive branch in one hand and a sword in the other. We are not meek. We are not, you know, we are humble, but we are not meek and and and we will, you know, we will defend ourselves. And so this gets to this misconception of Dickinson as being, you know, really just anti-war and pro-peace. Dickinson he did not want war, but he was willing to use civil war as a negotiating tactic. And so um, for him, it was preferable to fight a civil war over a revolutionary war. And so um uh so that the and and and to this end, he raised a battalion and he commanded it as a colonel, and he drilled it, he trained it, and and and you know, he was sort of the admiration, you know, the other delegates looked out the window and they could see him drilling with his unit in the, you know, uh, you know, in the state house yard. And they were they were impressed. Um, and um, and and then he he did a lot else to help, you know, prepare uh, you know, Pennsylvania and and America militarily to to fight. Um, so so you know, this is you know, so Dickinson was just doing all of these things to try to number one prevent independence, but number two, if independence was going to happen, he wanted America to be successful. So America had to be ready, had to be unified. And and and and so like he was sort of in a way kind of playing both sides, but doing everything he could to make sure that American rights and liberties would be best protected, however, you know, however they could be. Um, and and so there are just a lot of misperceptions um about you know when independence was discussed and how it was achieved, and and and especially what Dickinson was doing, um, both, you know, out in the open and behind the scenes. Um one other thing he did behind the scenes that has just come to light is that uh without without telling anyone in Congress, he drafted a bill, uh, a piece of legislation that he sent to a friend in London with the hope that this friend would get it to someone in parliament and it would pass. And it was an act to uh that would basically help Britain and Amer and the colonies reconcile. And this just came to light. It was reported on um on, I believe, on July 1st in the New York Times. And um the William and Mary Quarterly has now published a forum uh on these documents, and the documents are available for the public to see on the William and Mary uh quarterly website.
SPEAKER_01It's so wonderful how in the midst of the 250th, you know, we're still learning about what these signers did. I mean, just a couple things about what you talked about, Jane. The first is that I think going back to what you were saying about how you know the the presentism issue that we deal with, I do think it's um it's it's also not right to say, well, because of hindsight's 2020 and kind of what the the experiment that has lasted 250 years, that we should discount what some of these signers did because uh the the there's so much they didn't know, right? There was a and there's so much that a lot of people didn't know. Um and I think it's it makes a lot of sense when uh someone like Dickinson is trying to be the calculating person because there were I'm sure there were people who who were like, oh yeah, no, independents are well, let's you know uh we'll figure out the muskets later, we'll figure how this is all stuff out. But uh I think for a first, I think we would freak out at someone like Kenley Dickinson, because like we we have to, as you say, we have we had to be ready. And uh and there were a number of people who had to work on uh the of those committees to ensure that the militias were well armed because that was a huge issue. Um with that and um the training and all that, there was still a lot of those logistics, kind of as uh General Persony would say, you know, uh logistics win wars. Um and so I think it makes a lot of sense for Dickinson to be part of that. Uh I would also say that um I think it's pretty bold for him to tell John Jay that uh I think your writing is not not not so great this time. I'll I'll uh I'll come in. I think that that that that deserves some some uh a courage award, I think, in in that sense.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well well Dickinson wrote um in the first Congress, he wrote he was the main draftsman for four of the six documents that it produced, and he was the main draftsman for the most important documents that the second Congress produced, with the only exception being um the Declaration of Independence itself. Um but Dickinson wrote the Olive Ranch Petition, he made the definitive draft of the Declaration on Taking Up Arms, he wrote the first draft of the Articles of Confederation, and he wrote the first draft of the model treaty that became the basis for American foreign policy until World War II. Um and so it's it's very clear that if he had been in favor of the Declaration of Independence, he would have drafted it, um, not Thomas Jefferson, who was uh an unknown um compared to Dickinson. And um and uh and then also that um, you know, it's really inaccurate. You know, people like to refer to Dickinson as the penman of the revolution, but that's really inaccurate in ways, you know, especially considering that he did not want revolution, um, and and also the fact that he continued to write and and make contributions well after um you know the the you know independence, that you know, he he really should be called like the penman of the founding as the as as the biography is called.
SPEAKER_01But well said. Uh now uh uh Jane, I want to talk about the about his contributions to uh the ultimately what led to the constitution. And uh there's of course a lot there, but um uh with all the work that he did, and how how what what were his main contributions to uh the constitution? You know, would we have the constitution as we know uh without him?
SPEAKER_00Right. So yeah, I mean he made some really, really uh key uh contributions to the constitution. And in fact, he was one of the most um um you know, one of the members of the convention who participated the most. And this isn't this is in spite of the fact he was uh quite um um he he was suffering from debilitating headaches, and um he had he was out sometimes for for you know for illness and um he and he really at that point was not really functioning at his best, which you know we can see when um you know observers say like, oh, well, he didn't speak very well. Well, yeah, like he was in a lot of pain. And so yeah, he he didn't always express himself as as well as he as he uh as he usually did. But that said, Um he uh uh there were uh he made a whole lot of contributions, but just uh a few of them are uh you know, I'll mention. Um the biggest one was that yeah, he was the person who um provided the the solution to one of the main issues, one of the main uh problems that the convention struggled to solve, which was how um you know how representation would work in Congress. And so Dickinson was the first one to say multiple times that there should be equal representation in the Senate and proportional representation in the House. And um, and he mentioned this several times um and even provided a metaphor uh to explain this idea that he had actually been thinking about for years. And and the metaphor was a solar system where the federal government would be the sun and the states would sort of orbit the federal government. Um and and so he pro he provided this this this metaphor and this imagery and this solution, but he was kind of ignored and dismissed, and people like Benjamin Franklin, who totally never understood it, um, like like just like made fun of it and laughed about it, um, and broke the secrecy vow of Congress to like talk about it outside and not Congress, the convention to talk about it outside and laugh at it. Um, but then Franklin was on the committee that came up with the so-called Connecticut compromise, which basically just took Dickinson's idea. Um, and Dickinson hasn't gotten credit for it. Um, so so that was one thing that the that was probably the biggest thing. Um another major thing was um so uh was uh in what the another big problem was like what they should do about the executive. And so you had um on the one extreme, you have someone like Dickinson who thought there should be a um uh like a um a plural executive and that this executive should be popularly elected, so elected by like the population of America as a whole. Um, and then you have people on the other extreme, like Alexander Hamilton, who um, you know, wanted uh like a single executive for life, kind of like a monarch. Um, and and then there were you know people who did not think that there should be, you know, that the executive should be popularly elected. So Dickinson was actually, so he he proposed that the executive be uh elected by by you know popular vote, and he did not prevail in that, obviously. And then he was on the um the the committee to um to create the what became the electoral college. And this was not his first choice, obviously. And he was actually not even, he didn't make it to the committee until it was literally they were standing up to leave and because he'd been sick. And so he arrived, they were just breaking up and saying, like, oh yeah, we're done, we figured it out. And he was like, Okay, what'd you do? And they told him that they had the um the executive would be elected by um a branch of Congress. And he said, No, that is that is not gonna happen because that makes the the executive too dependent on the legislature. So he proposed that um that there should be, you know, this this sort of that the electors should be um, you know, not elected by Congress, but um elected by uh uh you know by the states. And so that's how we do it today. And so that was that was his idea. And it was not what he wanted, but it was the compromise that he could get. Um and then there were a couple of other things. Um he um was one of the few members of the convention to speak out against slavery on moral grounds, and um, and so one of the things he did was he uh he objected to the three-fifths clause, um, saying that like we should not have a government that is uh that you know, where our rights and and liberties are based on uh like people who do not have those rights and liberties. So he said that's that shouldn't happen, but you know, he lost that as well. And then the final thing was he was on uh the committee to sort of on like of postpone parts, or I think it's called, where they're sort of wrapping up, tying up loose ends, and uh and they were working on the three-fifths clause. I'm not sorry, the um the fugitive slave clause. And uh, and he they they it was going to say that you know any person uh legally held uh in lay, you know, to labor in in the states, if they you know escape to other states, they get to be they have to be returned. And he did not like that they used the word legally. And the reason for this was that he thought that he did not think that slave laws were legitimate. He thought that they were you know illegal. So he did not want slavery, you know, even to be any hint um uh of it being of it being legal. So um that word was removed. The slave the fugitive slave clause, you know, obviously went in, um, but that word legally was removed. And then flash forward to the 1857 Dred Scott decision. And in the dissent, Justice Benjamin Curtis actually cited uh the omission of that word um as evidence that the founders did not consider um African Americans to be inherently slaves. Um and and I should also say that Dickinson was the person who made the motion um to abolish the slave trade in the Constitution as well. Um so those were his major contributions. He made many, uh, many uh smaller ones, but those were the those were the big the big things.
SPEAKER_01Wow. Uh as I'm listening to you, Jane, um it I'm having one of those why didn't I learn about this in school kind of moments. Uh, because I do think when we learn about the declaration about the constitution, we we should know about the people who did who did come up with these ideas and of course the debates around these, right? So it'd be instead of just accepting the fact that the three-fifths compromise was put out, what were the debates like, right? And I think just how adding complexity to our history to our civics, I think really not only is uh something that makes sense, you know, to give people like Dickinson the credit that they that they deserve, uh, but also that we we understand them as you know the as as the human beings they were, you know. And I think it's important to uh understand that that it's not just about the outcomes of how policy works, it's the systems, it's the mechanisms. And um and there's so much about that time period that's fascinating because they were talking about mechanisms. I would who how who should elect the president? And I mean, gosh, if you were to bring up this idea of Congress selecting the president, I think people would be in an uproar here too.
SPEAKER_00Um and so I think this there is Or or selecting the electors, I think is is is what what the proposal was. But yes, I mean right, but it's it's well, you know, right. Um that there's not the the kind of you know separation that we should have and and what the founders wanted, and Dickinson was like, Well, hold on a minute, you know.
SPEAKER_01So he he he knew that anyone who would bring that up in 2026 in terms of the legislature electors would be dragged across the coals. I think um I think in some ways, you know, the founders instilled that helped instill that civic culture as well, where we we had there's this there is this long history of of us being a wary of what of a branch uh seemingly having more power, whether that is true or not, but just again, that consciousness uh to do that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and you know, that goes back to the sort of you know, the the the polar opposite ends, Dickinson and Hamilton, Dickinson wanting a plural executive and Hamilton wanting an executive, single executive for life. But even those two men who agreed on nothing on this topic, um, and were very different in a lot of other ways as well, they, along with the rest of the convention, all agreed um, you know, with what Dickinson said in the Fabious letters, which is that um he said, this president will be no dictator. He is removable, um uh removable and punishable for crimes. And that was something that this this convention agreed on almost nothing, but they agreed on that point.
SPEAKER_01Wow. Such such so fitting, and especially with with what they went, what they witnessed and uh you know during the revolution. Now, Jay, I'm gonna combine a couple questions here together uh before we go to the reflecting on Washington's farewell address. Obviously, I'd like to point out to everybody here, make sure that everyone takes a look at this copy here, Penman of the Founding, um, and a great picture of Dickinson, handsome fellow, I would say, and um and there's obviously a lot of great praise for your book, including uh from the late Gordon Wood, um, who was sort of uh such a remarkable historian and I think very much uh very much improved our understanding of our our own country, our own history. And and and I want to combine these two questions. The first, Jane, is you know, we going back to what we were discussing about how the a founder like Dickinson just kind of slipped through the cracks and kind of was forgotten by uh by a number of people. How do and one number one, how do we bring back quote unquotes, bring back the founders in terms of our understanding um founders like Dickinson to our civics? And uh I'd like to uh have you give a preview of not just this book here, but also of the project that you are working on as well. And uh just uh give us a preview of uh the the Don John Dickinson Writings Project as well, alongside the book.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so so I founded the John Dickinson Writings Project in 2010 to um to collect and transcribe, annotate, and publish everything that Dickinson wrote on public affairs over the course of his life. And that is the the reason there are so many biographies of all the other major founders and and and only well now with mine, uh my new biography, uh really only four biographies, and mine is the only one that is really comprehensive and um and accurate um is because um all the other founders have you know volumes, just you know, tens of volumes of their writings that have been published, and all the biographer has to do is pull them off the shelf and open it up, and everything is just right there. And all you have to do is read through it, you've got all the notes, it explains everything. So all you have to do is sort of pick out all the nice quotes you want and just you know put them in. And it's just it's all done for you. But that had not been done for Dickinson, and we're we're still only in the middle of the project, um, you know, collecting his documents, and we are just finding all these incredible new documents that are literally changing the historical narrative, um, you know, things that we had no idea that he wrote or or contributed to writing. And so, you know, finishing his writings and getting those writings, you know, out so that scholars and the public can read them is really key. Um, unfortunately, um we depend as all these projects do, we depend on federal funding. And um we uh our funding uh we were um we were defunded uh under the Biden administration um by far-left scholars who did not want the founders uh to have any more money directed towards them. And and they thought they they they would they literally say things like, well, we've got all the other founders, why do we need another one? We it's sort of been there, done that. Let's let's let's give the money to you know other uh other pursuits. So um so we have been desperately trying to get funding back. I've I lost um, I had a staff of four full-time editors and I lost all but one of them. And um, and we're so we're gonna have to, you know, try to try to get uh hopefully some of them back or hire new people. Um but that that's what has to happen. Um and and now that the biography is out, though, um, I think many more ordinary, you know, Americans who who the reading public is now much more aware of him than they were before. And so I hope people, you know, I'm grateful to podcasts like this one to get the word out so that people know about the biography and they know about the the the John Dickinson Writings project so they can donate to it. Um, you know, we we need donations large and small to keep the work going. Um and uh and we you know we've made remarkable progress. You know, we're on, we're working on volume five right now. Um we when we have a full staff, we just we are uh we do amazing work and it's it's as good as any of the you know any of the other projects, you know, uh Washington, Jefferson Adams, Hamilton, all those, um, you know, and as as necessary. So yeah, if you know, people can write a check uh to support it, it it's it's uh you know tax deductible, and you know, we just we desperately need help to keep the project afloat.
SPEAKER_01Um well Jane, I I want to say that uh first of all, it it's crazy how the Biden administration did that. I mean, I just think if John Dickinson is part of American history, you know, he's not a perfect individual, but neither is anybody in in our history. And if we want to really understand our country, I think a country that that struggles to understand itself is is one that is not going the right direction. And um I'm it it's crazy how there's the you know, going back to what we were talking about earlier, there's just some people who just have this warped view of of the founders because they just want to evaluate everything based on 2026 uh not and not actually understand the writings. Um and so I think it's really unfortunate. I hope that I hope that that federal funding can come back um and and so some other donations there too. Um and I I'm gonna say from from this conversation, you convinced me I'm gonna I'm gonna send a check here myself.
SPEAKER_00Well uh I think it's the least I can do.
SPEAKER_01I think it matches so well with what we do uh here on uh on Friends and Fellow Citizens. And the other is that um I I also I hope that as you were saying, right, that there's there is a there is a I think a civic duty to make these writings and these understandings public because um people are I think are always looking for the meaning of something, right? And I think when we add to that, uh just as you know uh as one would do with with graduate studies where you're trying to add a bit of peace of understanding. It's not it's not what Tony World Instantly talked about, and this is maybe this is a way to understand this issue a bit differently, but it's it's that understanding in addition to knowledge that I think is really profound. Uh and I think it has uh huge huge benefits for our civics. So I just wanted to to uh to say that it's it's a worthy project, and I hope that uh I hope that you you all continue to do that work there. Thank you thank you.
SPEAKER_00And and and I'll say to you, you know, I mean, I think all of the the the founders are are super valuable, and but but uh you know it it's also fair to say that you know some of them are quite problematic figures, you know, and and they you know they did things in their lives that we cannot defend. And that's not that doesn't mean that they're everything should be tossed out, um, you know, because we we don't like what Jefferson did or Franklin or you know, with with you know enslaved people or women or whatever. Um, but that that doesn't mean that their ideas are not valuable and that we should be able to learn from their mistakes and you know, use their ideas. The nice thing about Dickinson is that he doesn't have any skeletons. You know, he wasn't perfect, um, certainly by any stretch, but like he was on all the big issues, he was on the right side of history. And and so, you know, there, you know, one does not have to make apologies for him. And and his, as as, you know, as you pointed out, a lot of his values um resonate with us today um in in in important ways. So, you know, maybe it makes it should make him a little bit more palatable to people across the political spectrum, um, you know, maybe more so than some of the others.
SPEAKER_01In indeed, indeed. Uh well, Jane, I I want to before we wrap up, I'd like to reflect on Washington's farewell address and the principles. So, you know, patriotism, faith, national unity, education, fiscal responsibility, civility, very key things. But uh, but Jane, from just reflecting on the farewell address, um, what are oh how how would you connect our conversation to those values that I just mentioned and and the farewell address that Washington delivered there?
SPEAKER_00Well, so um, I mean, you know, Washington's farewell address, which of which was, you know, I think uh at least uh co-authored by uh Hamilton, um, you know, it's it's rightfully uh a very famous address, and it has really important themes in it. And I think most of them, I think Dickinson would agree with with most of them, and I I I have a I I don't think he ever commented on it, but I have a hard time imagining him disagreeing with anything in in that address. But I think what he well I know what he would um he would emphasize the most would be like I guess three things. Um civic education, um religious education, and um what you know, so civic education for him like included religious education, um, and unity. Um unity was the mantra that he lived by and that he advocated his entire life. Uh and um like really everything he wrote to the American people was about was about maintaining unity. And so um uh so that one is sort of a a very obvious one. Um and and you know, if you if you read his fabious letters, you know, you really see him, you know, talking about like um he he sort of defined like what he believed, like, you know, that we have that there's that line in the Declaration of Independence, you know, that you know, the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. And he explains, you know, what he believes would lead to happiness. And and and he meant that that people, individuals will never um the greatest way to find happiness is by serving others. Um, and you know, by by you know, doing, you know, doing you know, helping vulnerable people and uh you know, basically, you know, uh charity work and and um uh and helping one's neighbors. And this was all about you, you know, unity for him. Um but also you know, civic education became Dickinson's main philanthropic priority when when he was in retirement. He retired finally and for good um in 1793. And then he he turned his he turned his attention to writing um about uh uh theology and uh relations with France and education, and he started putting his money towards uh various uh uh educational endeavors. Sometimes it was you know funding like say a you know a medical society or helping uh a relatively new religious denomination get up and up and running. Um, but he also founded multiple schools um and uh and and funded these schools, and some of them still exist today, Dickinson College, which was founded in his honor and named for him uh by Benjamin Rush. But Dickinson provided 600 acres and a library full of books and uh served uh as the president of the board of trustees uh for a number of years. Um, and then the other school that still exists is West Town, uh Westtown School, which is a Quaker school in Chester County, Pennsylvania. And that was Dickinson's idea and his money that got that started. And his idea was that he wanted a school for poor and orphaned children of all denominations. And so his main interest was in getting, especially uh poor and orphaned children, um, education that would allow them to participate in society. And so to that end, he wanted them to have the same kind of liberal education that he had so that they would actually learn uh to read Latin and Greek so they could read the classics in the original and that. Was unheard of for poor children. They were generally just considered good for only manual labor and they were educated for that. And Dickinson said no, um, they should be educated to read uh and study the classics so they can understand the government and how to be good citizens. And so, you know, I think that that issue of um of civic education in Washington's farewell address would be uh probably the thing that like he certainly uh you know acted on on the most. Um and and he didn't he he he he didn't really he did he was like a lot of Quakers, he didn't uh not not being a Quaker to be clear, but uh in that he uh did not think people needed to become Quakers, only that they should act like Quakers. And uh and and that you know meant he wanted he hoped people would, you know, attend church and and uh um and and be sort of true to um you know true to uh uh you know any kind of faith. But I he also I don't think minded if people were um atheists as long as they acted like Quakers.
SPEAKER_01Uh and uh I think uh it makes perfect sense that uh he uh made all those contributions and and you were you talking about Jane about pursuit of happiness is serving others and I think that's what uh we strive to do in this country. And I hope hopefully we continue that. Uh hopefully we for for every generation, right? That that that part of civic education is not just sitting down uh just um passively learning about civics, about seeing the civics yourself, right? Going out and uh and serving others, learning about you know your community, learn about your state, about your country as you're as you're going about that. Uh Jane, uh it's been a pleasure talking with you. I I learned so much about John Dickinson more than more than all the years of schooling combined, including graduate school. Um surprise over the last hour. So um I I really appreciate you illuminating this part of the uh American story and to uh highlight somebody who did make a lot of contributions to our country and who I I don't think should be ignored anymore. And I think that hopefully that that's not just for him, that's for for maybe some of the other signers. You mentioned Benjamin Rush. He's he's also, I think, part of part of that too, where people need to understand him a lot more. Jane, uh, how can people learn more about uh your project and just follow uh what you're up to these days?
SPEAKER_00Well, um, so um the John Dickinson Writings Project does have a a Facebook um uh profile, uh, but also there is the we've got a website. Um the it's I think it's just uh JD jdproject.org. Um and then I've got my um my personal website, which is all one word, uh drjaniecalvert uh.org. And so you know, I try to uh keep up with posting, you know, uh what I've what I've what I'm doing there and what I published and and podcasts and things like this. Uh so those are those are uh you know um there uh I guess the I guess the the John Dickinson Writings Project also has uh you know we're on I don't I don't do much social media because it's it's just me, but we do have uh you know Facebook and and Blue Sky and and uh um and but yeah, I'm not on I'm not on them uh a whole lot uh because I've I've got a lot of work to do on Dickinson and don't have time for uh for for being on social media very much. But yeah, my those two websites um and the Facebook um uh profile, those are probably the best ways to keep up with with uh my work and the work of the project.
SPEAKER_01Excellent. Jane, thank you so much for coming on our podcast.
SPEAKER_00Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_01Thank you all so much for listening to this episode. I hope you enjoyed it. Make sure to check out the links down in the show notes below. Have a great rest of your day and rest of your week. And remember, a day in America is always better. We are with our friends and fellow citizens.
