Friends & Fellow Citizens
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Friends & Fellow Citizens
#179: Dialoguing a World in Candid Conversation on Race, Ethnicity, and Culture feat. Dr. Laurie Mulvey, Dr. Sam Richards
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In a polarized political environment, people on the right and left may have knee-jerk reactions that fit their biases when they hear "race, ethnicity, culture." But at Penn State and beyond, these concepts represent something bigger: a world in conversation about how people connect with racial, ethnic, and cultural groups.
Two Penn State sociology professors Dr. Laurie Mulvey and Dr. Sam Richards join the podcast to discuss what makes civil dialogue so valuable in understanding people's social identities around the world. Dr. Mulvey is the Director of the World in Conversation Center for Public Diplomacy, which has engaged in open inquiry and non-partisan engagement with more than half a million participants over two decades. Dr. Sam Richards teaches publicly broadcasted SOC 119, the world's largest race and ethnicity course with 800 students enrolled per semester and nearly 400,000 Youtube subscribers.
Learn more about World in Conversation!
https://worldinconversation.psu.edu/
Watch and subscribe to SOC 119!
https://www.youtube.com/@SOC119
Check out the PBS documentary about SOC 119!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4KLSR-oxuQ
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IMPORTANT NOTE/DISCLAIMER: All views expressed by the host are presented in his personal capacity and do not officially represent the views of any affiliated organizations. All views presented by guests are solely those of the interviewees themselves and may or may not represent the views of their affiliated organizations, the host, Friends & Fellow Citizens, and/or The George Washington Institute.
Patriotism, faith, national unity, education, fiscal responsibility, stability, the values that define America. Fascinating stories and talks from America-loving patriots dedicated to preserving freedom, opportunity, and justice. Welcome to the Friends and Fellow Citizens Podcast. Greetings, everybody, welcome to Friends and Fellow Citizens. I'm your host, Sherman Talowski, as always. Thank you all so much for joining me in this interview episode, episode 179. If you're new to this podcast, welcome. Firstly, a thank you to our Patreon supporters. They are absolutely amazing keeping this show going. So if you are enjoying our content like additional benefits, including podcast bugs, check out our Patreon page in the show notes below. If you haven't already, make sure to smash that subscribe button or sign up for our email list at our website, georgewashing institute.org. We also have a video version of this episode, which is on our YouTube page. You can just click down below to access that or to watch it if you prefer the video episode. Before we get into it, this is a very unique episode episode, as you'll be able to tell. And I'm very excited to have our two special guests joining me for this interview or conversation. We first have Dr. Lori Mulvay and Dr. Sam Richards of Penn State University and State College, Pennsylvania. Without further ado, let's get right into our episode. All right, everybody, I am excited to welcome Dr. Lori Mulvay and Dr. Sam Richards onto the podcast. Lori and Sam, thank you so much for coming on our podcast today. Thanks for having us.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, thanks for inviting us.
SPEAKER_03Well, first of all, thank you for coming onto the program. I know you both are incredibly busy and you uh also do some travel as well. I don't know. You recently just came back from Korea. So uh hopefully uh transition back to Eastern time wasn't too bad. But uh I I'm glad I'm glad to see that we're both we're all we're all here. And I really want to start with uh prefacing by saying that this episode is gonna be very unique in that we're gonna be talking about race, ethnicity, and culture, but we're gonna be doing so I think in a slightly different manner. So the first half hour, so we're gonna be speaking about world and conversation and social nineteen. And then the second half, I've uh told Lori and Sam that we're gonna have a bit of a slightly open conversation, uh discussion of some kind to discuss uh being mixed race in America. Um as some of the listeners will know, I am mixed race. My uh my dad is of Ukrainian descent, my mom is of Taiwanese descent. I think it's a really interesting conversation to have about how to think about these issues and and how to move forward with them in a way. Uh Loria, I'm gonna start with you in terms of introduction. So would you mind sharing a bit more about yourself and and how you really discover sociology in this space that we're gonna be discussing today?
SPEAKER_01Well, um, I first of all, I'm the founding director of World and Conversation, which I co-founded with my lovely husband and colleague, Sam Richards. And um we started as the race relations project, and we were posing a question: what is going on in this generation with race, this generation meaning in the early 2000s? I can explain more about that another time. But that was really the question that inspired us to actually start having cross-campus conversations. Um I'm from New Jersey. I'm the oldest of uh four, four kids, uh, Newark, New Jersey. Everybody knows Newark, even though they like to think of it as New York. I mean the airport anyway. But um, that's where I'm from. So from the working class. And um, very much, I think because of that, I think a social worker at heart, even though I feel like I'm also just a lifetime student of just whatever I can learn. But I I really feel close to the to people and to the to what's happening on the ground, what whatever that is or wherever that is. So that's me.
SPEAKER_03Excellent. And uh Sam, uh can you describe a bit more about yourself and and how you got interested in sociology? I imagine that's that uh sociology was quite a glue that put you and Lori together to work together and to and to be married to one another.
SPEAKER_02Oh yeah. Well, I'm from Toledo, Ohio. And uh I am working class also, so Lori and I have that connection. We met at Rutgers University. I went to the University of Toledo for my undergrad and my master's, studied sociology. Uh I wasn't a very good student in grade school or high school, or at least I was a good student in the ideal sense that I enjoyed reading and thinking, but I didn't take grades very seriously. So uh I went to University of Toledo or going to class or doing homework or doing anything really. Uh but I wanted to be a rock and roll drummer and I worked a lot. My dad died when I was nine, so I was working all the time. Uh, because you know, when you're working class, that's the kind of thing you gotta do. But in any case, I yeah, I just fell in love with sociology in my third year in college, and then I never looked back. And uh and and you know, in retrospect, I I just like I enjoy learning things, just like Lori, you know, learning things. I like learning about people, like learning about different cultures, and so I traveled in a lot, and uh, and then just really dug into sociology.
SPEAKER_01And I we should say, I should say the funny thing is I only took one sociology class in my life, and that was Sam's class when I was 21 and he was 25. So I was a senior in college, and it was my one sociology class, and he was a grad student. And so so, but and in terms of the evolution of the conversation between us, which is now most of our lives, it really has started with and centered around sociology and Sam's way of thinking, because I was very much a psychological thinker and a legal kind of thinker, and I really developed the sociological imagination and it changed. I mean, it's been a lifetime of that, but it's totally shifted my way of being in the world.
SPEAKER_03That's incredible. And Sam, that must have been one heck of a class. I'm sure you did a fantastic job.
SPEAKER_02No, it it in retrospect, I have no idea. You know, yeah, like I've been teaching for 41 years, and any teacher is gonna look back at their early years and think, oh my God, I was a hot mess and I didn't know anything. You know, the wisdom doesn't come until you're in about 30 years or so. If you can get any wisdom, but I will say one little factoid that I think is valuable. Um, about a year and a half after Lori took that class, she was reading I was teaching another intro to sociology class, and she was reading the textbook that I used.
SPEAKER_01And uh I was like the TA for the class, it was a summer class, and I was TA ing it.
SPEAKER_02And so she came upon the sociological imagination, which is the key concept in sociology. It's there are many key concepts, but I think it's the key concept. Anyway, and she just really spoke it back to me in a way that I had heard it uh in this really unique way for the first time. So I always say that Lori interesting enough, turned me on to the sociological imagination. So that's pretty cool.
SPEAKER_03That's amazing. I I love how you both describe that imagination element, that creativity element to some degree, because I think this is seems like this is a space where it really does require the human imagination and to be able to picture things when uh particularly as you're teaching a new concept, I imagine. Uh it's it's always easier to describe in pictures. It's almost like the expression a picture paints a thousand words. Uh Lori, I'd like to now turn to you to talk about world and conversation. And we spoke about this a little bit before our recording day. And the simple answer the simple thing is I really feel like conversation is where you can have that human connectivity. And it's in this day and age when everything's instantaneous, everyone wants to get the new news or the new facts or the new this and and the and novelty is good, but for for a lot of these very important issues, it takes time and effort to connect with some, particularly when it's someone whom you have disagreements with. And uh one of the amazing things I love about World in Conversation is this idea that you're putting these small groups together, you're discussing some of the biggest issues, even issues that you people wouldn't even want to uh discuss out there.
SPEAKER_01No one wants to.
SPEAKER_03So what what can you tell us about the the mission and the vision and the values of World and Conversation? How how this organization and this uh method differs from uh from other uh ways of communication and just a conversation about controversial topics and issues.
SPEAKER_01Well, um I've learned a lot through what is really grounded theory, which is a sociological qualitative method of research. And it's just a it's very natural to me to be, like I said earlier, on the ground listening to people and observing what they say, what they think, what they do. And so I've had so many conversations over the years. I didn't know why I was doing it. Literally, I this was just um an opportunity, a job, a need that was put in front of me to help students to have conversations on campus. And it obviously turned into my whole life. But so I didn't have an ambition, I didn't have a strategy. But um, what I wound up learning over time is that there's a structure to conflict. That's one thing, and that their groups need facilitators. And they we all know about groupthink, right? But what I really lit um kind of ride on is group thinking, because I think people are much smarter when they think together, that is when multiple brains are working. But most of most of the time what we see is conformity, right? Because people want to belong. So natural to us. Socialization itself is a way of belonging to a group. And so, so a coup those things put together over many, many years of listening to people in all kinds of conflicts all around the world. It the the key message is um your conflict is not unique as much as everybody wants to think it is. And there are ways to work with conflict, and you can't do it by yourself. And so what we wound what we wind up doing and what we've been doing is really training people to become facilitators. And how it's different, and also how it's controversial, is that we emphasize that you must take all sides if you're a facilitator. And why, and if you think about the era that we're in and the you know, the high levels of social conflict, taking all sides is being a professional trader and nobody likes it. And yet that is the only way that you can be effectively between people in conflict and make anything positive happen. So there's a lot to say in all that. I already said a lot, but I don't think that it is easy to take all sides. And I think what's unique about us is the way we support a practice that necessitates that and then actually shifts the mindset of the people who become facilitators.
SPEAKER_03I'm so fascinating. I like what you said about how these these conflicts are not unique to just one person.
SPEAKER_01I always say that with one society or one situation, or it's whatever the history is. It's there's a structure that is not unique. Sorry to interrupt you, but yeah.
SPEAKER_03Oh, for sure. No worries, no worries. I uh um Sam, did you want to add something?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, or one social cause. You know, each cause they feel like, okay, but but this is unique, you know, the environmental movement, these issues, and what we're going through and what we're trying to do are really, really special to us. And it's like, well, but the but the the context, you know, the structure is the same.
SPEAKER_03I I completely agree because there's always there's always events and movements and whatnot that uh previous generations have built as well. So it's it's also important, I think, recognize that uh we can't just kind of put ourselves on the pedestal and say we're we're the only ones who are defending this or that. There's so many people in the past who have gone through much tougher challenges, I would argue. And um and it's hard for us to put into context, which I think is a common theme for a lot of political and social issues. Laurie, I'd like to build a bit more on those findings in terms of constructive dialogue. One of the things I find fascinating is that people really are looking for those institutions and those arenas where they can sit down and spend time and have conversations. And I think a lot of people always expect for whatever conversation to expect some kind of result, whether it be like, oh, I I won that debate or I or I I owned that person. That's kind of the new social media thing. And and I I I I don't know if that's very very effective, really. I think it's important to just hear from someone's perspective instead of feeling like everything is a battle and that you have to win it. So what can you share more about the some of these findings that and and observations that you've seen with World of Conversation and and how that kind of fits in with how we can understand uh talking about these issues in a much larger context?
SPEAKER_01Well, I think we first have to separate it from uh what is above us, which is leadership, right? Because leadership, whatever the nature of leadership is in whatever countries that we live in, leadership has to lead. And there is, and that's and gaining those positions puts you in a zero-sum game, right? It's like you win the position or you don't. And so win, lose. At the same time, there's so much communication that happens from above that we forget and we think that that's actually how communication happens, is what we're seeing. But actually, when we're talking about most of the rest of us, that is the civilians, the citizens, uh, overwhelmingly, we are not in a zero-sum game. And so when we mistake what we see in leadership or, and I use leadership because it's the most, it's the one we most focus on, or it's the most visible. Um, so even though you're talking, negotiating, having diplomacy, making decisions, this is different than what we as citizens, people, families, groups, communities are doing. So there are no winners. Actually, you either we all win or we all lose, is what I say. And so while on a national or international stage, it might not benefit someone to collaborate, so they think it benefits all of us to collaborate and to, like I said, think together. So I think the most important part is you have to realize that we all win or we all lose. And so debates, I'm not, I think we have to bring different ideas together, but I don't think deciding who's winning or losing or who has the best argument helps anyone. And so I I'll final thing I'll not final, but in this moment, final thing I'll say is when people come into a dialogue with us and using this method, the thinking together method, we see each person has a piece of the truth. So we're not debating whose truth because if it's not true, it's not part of the truth. So the point is everyone has a piece. Let's put them together like a puzzle and see the larger truth rather than exile certain ones that certain people don't want to be true. And so that's the work is putting pieces, finding the truth that is in each one of us and putting it together with the other parts because we miss all of that when we decide, oh, I'm gonna win the argument. Great. You were smarter at being able to shut somebody up, but you missed their ideas and all the things that they had to say that were valuable.
SPEAKER_03I'm glad you said that. We're all either winners or losers, uh, in depending on how we construct those those conversations. And I'm sure there were probably countless people who left that room thinking, wow, I've I I may not have changed my mind, but I I now know why someone thinks this way. And who knows how many more conversations come out afterwards. Maybe people make new friends or something.
SPEAKER_01So well, it goes it goes beyond that. It's actually once you realize that your opponent has valuable information, you realize that you have to work together. Because, you know, I I also say if you're building a house and you're just building it with the electricians, you're not building a very good house, right? You need plumbers and architects and designers and masons and all of those things. So it's the same with any other anything we're trying to build or do. We need those different ideas. Those ideas should not be at war. The plumbers are not at war with the masons. You know what I mean? Like that's just foolish. And so, but we let ourselves be fooled time and time again.
SPEAKER_03Our our family has done a lot of renovation work in this house. What I can tell you is what brings people together is like things like food and all that. And I'm glad that I'm glad that we're not uh we're put pitting two different traits together. I think you're absolutely right. Everyone's working on their pit of the house, and guess what? The house is better every single time.
SPEAKER_04So absolutely fantastic.
SPEAKER_03Uh well, Sam, I'm going to turn to you now and uh let's discuss a bit about Soach 119. This is a great complement to uh what Lori was discussing there about the purpose of conversation. And when I ask people to, of course, check out the show notes uh below of the episode to learn more about Soach 119 and to actually watch these classes which are are broadcasts on YouTube. I have to say, Sam, uh this is a class where if I were to go back in time and I rolled in Penn State, uh I would most certainly take this class because this class is different than almost any other class I can imagine. And I'd like for you to uh share with our audience today an overview of SOAS 119 and what makes this class different in terms of its its focus on race, ethnicity, and culture, which is first of all a great title, but also it's such a significant uh set of three, almost like a three-legged stool, that I think we we are lacking uh whether on college campuses or in other institutions in our country and world.
SPEAKER_02Well, it's also the the the place out of which world and conversation emerged. So uh so this will I'll talk about it and this kind of takes us back to world in conversation. I started teaching it in the fall of 1991. I came here to to to Penn State uh to be with Lori, actually. She came here to do her PhD, and I was living in Ecuador and um needed a place to write my dissertation, and so I came here and um never you just came here because you needed a place to write your dissertation. I wanted to live, I wanted to live with my my darling life partner. We weren't married at the time. No, yeah, that did sound like that. Okay, yeah, sorry about that. Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_01I'm I'm just I know why you came, but I just did sound like that.
SPEAKER_02I know it. It's funny though. So uh anyway, I yeah, I started, you know, but I I'm an internationalist, like a globalist in my thinking. So I started teaching this class that was originally about US race relations, but I very quickly started talking about international issues and the class, you know, a lot of students from international students were enrolled. And the first year, I think I had the first semester, 150 students, and now we're up to 800. Um, and yeah, it's just you know, well, here I you know, I used to lecture more. I mean, when I taught smaller classes, I always had open discussion. Um, and then even in this class, I would pass mics around and we would talk. It was it was never pure lecture, but I used to talk more than I do now and even have kind of a set of ideas that I would use. And but I, you know, eventually when you s when you teach for a long time, uh I that gets kind of old. It gets old and it gets boring. It's not interesting. Go ahead.
SPEAKER_01Can I add two things to the that you can jump off of?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Because um, you know, this it's it's hard for any of us to like to really see our own self developed. And so I have a front row seat to watch. Sam develop. And at some point in his work, he started to uh to to just in the class was really big and he was a lecturer, and people really were drawn to the way he did that for what for whether other reasons we could talk about. Um, and and so that so the class had had a following, if you will, way back before any of this, you know, talking to students that you see now happened. But one of the things that happened as the class got larger is Sam just spontaneously would just ask, you know, a student a question that was really unusual. And and one of them and the most, and then he was recording the class at the time because he was developing an online class. And the one that was the most significant was when he he had a black student, a black man, and he said, Can you find the redneck in the room? And and and so that actually got the attention, and and he would just spontaneously have those moments. And it was kind of fun and but also really interesting, right? It really made me kind of edgy, and edgy, but of course, you know, there was drama, there was humor, there was all kinds of things, and and there was learning. And one of the producers of the local public television station saw that somehow or heard about it. And so then eventually there was this they were they started to film the class and wanted to create um a PBS show. And so that actually what that made Sam do was do more of that and then do it more predictably, and then do more and more of it. And so there was this real turn that you didn't choose, Sam, but it was like other people saw it in you that you had this ability when you were interacting with students that was different than what you were doing just as a lecturer. And I feel like that's just so important to the evolution of Soch119.
SPEAKER_02You're you're right. That's that's really that's the jumping off point. And so then we started to to for a while as we were preparing for the television show, Lori would watch from the sound booth in the back, and then she would speak in my ear. We had a system uh monitor system set up, and she would feed me questions and different things in my ear, you know, that because in the moment, you know, you're in front of 800 people and cameras, and I'm in the live engaging with people, you know, like a comedian does when the comedians add living, you know, and uh and riffing with the audience. And it's it's kind of yeah, it's it's complex, especially when you're talking about the most controversial issues of the day and trying not to get canceled.
SPEAKER_01And when you're fundamentally someone who has evolved as a a speaker, because that's what you are. So you had to Sam says he's my my best student, so he had to learn to be a facilitator, a specific kind of facilitator in a public space. But he had so so yeah, so I used to, and I did this with students in terms of world and conversation. We're not doing it right now, but for many years, they would be in a dialogue and I would be in the other room talking in their ear and asking and suggesting a question, suggesting a move. What about this? You forgot that person.
SPEAKER_02What about what that talk to that guy in the blue shirt right now? Yeah, yeah. Wait, wait, you forgot your question.
SPEAKER_01You were asking this now. Stay with the question, blah, blah, blah. And so Sam, I would do this. I did the same with Sam for a couple semesters, I think.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it was good. So I'll tie this up quickly. So now we've got 800 students in the room. I asked uh they fill out a volunteer form if they want to be part of one of the volunteers. And about 200 of them every semester volunteer. It's a and what that means is they before class, you know, I I let them know ahead of time, hey, you know, can you volunteer today? I don't tell them the topic, they never have any idea, but they come and they they come up to the front of the room, and then we have the topic, you know, whatever it might be. And um, and then, you know, and they're they're nervous because you know, we're on YouTube, man, and we're people are watching from all over the world. And like they, but you know what what we find is that students are really thoughtful. Um, we need you know, I don't ask them questions about history and knowledge, things that require them to study and prepare. I just ask them to talk about their lives and what they see, because this is what I've learned from Lori and her work. Um, just get people to share what they already know and what they see. And so, anyway, that's what we do. And uh, and it's it's a lot of fun. We're up to about almost uh half a billion views on YouTube on various channels and so on. So that's a lot. And people watch, I should add really quickly. People watch because they they want to understand that the young, very few viewers are college-age students, so a lot of high school kids watch, but but it's uh it's adults who want to understand how young college students are thinking these days. Yeah, so they they get a chance to do that in my class.
SPEAKER_03That's incredible. And and first of all, congratulations on such a successful project. I mean, from going from an online class to now being broadcast to for anyone around the world. Uh, and the fact that both of you are able to put together such a project that brings in college students so that they they are making the college experience themselves in that class. And I I'm really fascinated by what these students have said. Um, you mentioned Lori mentioned the PBS documentary. I think I remember I think one of the segments was uh you brought a uh a white woman and asked her uh to look for the darkest skin person. Um and everyone's like, oh my gosh, like this is but uh but you could feel it in the room. And and the girl who was picked as the darkest skin person, she she obviously embraced it. And and that I think was what's so uh interesting is how seeing uh seeing these college students embrace their uh identities, but also being being able to share that. And and Sam, I'd like to kind of ask you a bit more about that because there's so many people who say, well, they're just colleges, they're they're they're they're young, maybe even too young, they're still developing, but they really do offer some really unique perspectives. It's not just me saying that as someone who taught um my first undergrad class this past semester. I really have watched the videos and there's some really eloquent speakers there. There's uh people who uh sometimes sometimes particularly on foreign policy and uh obviously it's a tough subject to talk about, but at the end of the day, they still share their views and and of course you Sam, you you facilitate that. So uh what is it about college students and and just the experience of being a Penn State or um that makes makes this project unique?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and then it's well I think that we don't often ask young people what they think in a in a classroom setting, right? It starts at a very young age, and um, unless you're in a kind of a unique type of of educational setting, um, like some kind of Quaker setting or some other type of teaching. I can't think of any names right now. Maybe Lori can know, but these uh uh non-traditional forms of education, you know, we're not asking people to think, and so or to to say what they see. And um, and you know, and in my class, um again, it it's like look, there's no right answer, A, and B, um there are no gotcha moments. I'm not gonna kind of do say something that's gonna call you out. I'm gonna ask you a question that you will for which you will have an answer. You absolutely have to have an answer. So, or you can have an answer because you and the answer might be, I don't know, I've never thought about that before. It's like, oh, well, you know, think about it now. Did does it take you anywhere? And so a lot of sometimes they'll just say, No, I I really don't have anything to say, and then I'll move on to the next student. But usually people have something to say, and I think that's so intriguing to get you get to hear people thinking out loud, so to speak, right? And that's it's pretty fascinating, especially on these really controversial issues, you know. It might be like trans students and and you know, and athletics in the United States, right? We want to, you know, stop any trans students from participating in athletics, you know, on teams other than the the gender, sex in which they were born, kind of thing. It's like, well, all right, well, what do you think about that? And then you know, you get to hear these students from around the world, right? Because 40% of my class is from is are are well 30% are international students, but about half the class are students of color or international students, right? So you get all these backgrounds and you get people, you get to hear how they weigh in on this stuff. It's so fascinating. To me, it's really interesting. It's why I teach this way now exclusively, because I'm really after 41 years, I'm pretty bored listening to myself, but I never get bored listening to other people.
SPEAKER_03So interesting, and I'm I'm glad that you you really highlight the international students and the the students of color too. Uh, I think it's so valuable for for them to be part of the space and to see these other different perspectives. And uh I'm just again, I'm I I also am glad that you've told the students to not have to take notes and all your first of all, you're saving probably a lot of paper and electricity. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think Penn State should maybe reimburse you for some of the energy costs that they're saving on that.
SPEAKER_02Also, just the absurdity. You know, we you think about all the notes that you've taken, and now you know you you throw most of them, you don't remember, we don't remember anything from our classes, right? Like that's the nature of of how this works, right? You take notes, you memorize them for exams, and then that's it. And maybe a tiny fraction of these kind of factoids that we've gotten through the throughout the course of our lives, we remember. And so for me, I don't I want you to just sit and be inspired, and uh, and that's it. That's the best. If you want to learn anything more, just get you can get on your phone and look it up. But if you can look it up, I have no business talking about it. You know, like yeah, that's kind of the way I operate.
SPEAKER_03Almost like um instead of giving people fish, you it's best to teach them how to fish in that sense.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that kind of thing. And listen, and you're a historian, right? So for you it's a little bit different, right? You you want your students, you don't you don't want them taking very detailed notes because look, that's they they can get that from online from all the writings, but you want them to just have be able to write some outlines that they that will help them to develop their understanding of history, and you know, you don't want to be don't take notes in a narrative fashion because that's just a waste of time. But write a few tiny like bullet points in places that you think, okay, that's important. So let me get that down. That kind of thing, right? So if I were doing a history class, I would have my students be at least writing bullet points, but you know, but that's not what we're doing, so I don't have to do that.
SPEAKER_03Indeed, indeed. Well, Lori, I'd like to turn back to you, and of course, I'll ask Sam the same question as well about the the some of the challenges of facilitating these conversations. Because of course uh it's one of those things where if if everybody could uh if it was easy, everybody would do it. Uh and uh but it as Lori kind of alluded to, it this takes some practice or some training and and whatnot. And and Samuel, you talked about too, about the the ability for people to open up and to just um to really to really say what they think and feel. And uh Lori, uh I'd like to ask, what what do you think is one challenge or the biggest challenge that you have found for encouraging facilitating conversation about race, ethnicity, and culture, and and how you've found uh to be uh a a great learning experience, but also any anything you can share about how to overcome a challenge like that?
SPEAKER_01Well, um let's see. I think the biggest challenge is the way we understand the world. That means that we can only facilitate a conversation from our own perspective, right? Which sorry Sam, I keep saying right. We can only facilitate from our own perspective. And yet what people need is for someone to be able to take multiple perspectives, right? So I think that we have to continue to challenge a person who's gonna facilitate meaningfully, even though your your expertise is not necessarily the content area, right? Your expertise is human interaction and sociological factors and the way groups work and communication techniques and psychology, but um, you really have to always be a step ahead and asking questions with a beginner's mind. Because, and sometimes one of the things that we do with our student facilitators is we often have conversations that are meant to also just help them explore a topic. So, one, they can see a facilitator at work, but they can also experience dialogue and see what that is. And so we'll ask a question, for example, if you came to planet Earth as an alien, what would you what would you notice about race, for example? Right. And so you could start, you can ask different questions when they don't have to start from your own ideological perspective, right? So if you were just like, everyone's the same, we shouldn't have race as a category, we should forget about it, whatever, whatever. That's one narrative. The other is everybody should be able to identify themselves as whatever they are, all cultures should be acknowledged, et cetera, et cetera. That's another way of thinking, but that's not how you can facilitate. You can't facilitate with that limited narrative in your head. And so that is the biggest challenge is how to be able to be ahead of what the group with individuals are thinking and not be trapped in your own narrative, which is obviously a challenge.
SPEAKER_02You know, if I could add to that, you you, Lori, are one of the most open-minded person, or at least open and open to people with ideas that other people would find completely intolerable because you have a deep curiosity for how they got to those ideas, and yet you have such strong opinions and thoughts about so many things, but yet you you're so open, you know. You yeah, it's really it's it's really remarkable.
SPEAKER_01Um I have strong opinions about conflict and culture and all of these things because I've been watching it succeed and fail in front of my eyes day after day after day after day.
SPEAKER_02But but you're but yeah, but you're you're really smart and you're a quick thinker and you're smart and you know a lot about many, many things. And so, you know, you put you put things together, and yet you'll very just you you put these you know disparate ideas together and then you'll just pull them apart because someone says something, and you'll be like, Oh, okay, I'll pull that apart and see see what it looks like. And so I say that because it it really I see how uh I have a front row seat to how incredibly difficult it is to be a facilitor, or at least would be really difficult for me, even though I'm also really open-minded and I change my thinking about things all the time, but still you're you know, you do that in such fascinating ways. So, anyway, Sherman, it's uh it's really uh it's a it's it's really fun to watch. And as you know, as academics or as people who you know our job is to think about the world in innovative ways, it's it's really fun to participate in. And it feels like it's a it's a more direct path to to wisdom as opposed to just intellect, you know, because wisdom embraces contradictory ideas and so on. So it's it's cool, yeah.
SPEAKER_01I mean, I I probably wouldn't say contradictory only in the moment, but I would much more say paradoxical.
SPEAKER_02Oh, paradoxical, yeah.
SPEAKER_01That's paradoxical is truth, right? There's things that are intention, but they're both true, you know, multiple things are true. And so seeing that in right in front of me, day after day, dialogue after dialogue, it it really does, really does something to me. Um but there was one other thing I just wanted to say quickly. I don't know if I can come if I can get back to it. Um because your question was about challenges. Right. And and I think I think what's most important really is that there's so much possibility between people. You know, Sam, once I I did this video a couple of months ago where I Sam and I were sitting in the frame and I was I said, Hey, everybody, here's our marriage. Do you see it? Can you see it? Not me, not Sam, but our marriage. And our marriage is that invisible thing between us that we create together, and that is only a product of us, but it's more than me or Sam. It's you know, the one plus one equals three. And that one plus one equals three is in play all the time, and it is the most underutilized resource of human life because relationship is so crucial. And so things like debates are there's they so miss the point. Uh and I love listening to people debate. Trust me, I find it fascinating to hear the different ideas. But if we want to build the world and we want to solve problems, we can't just talk at each other and not actually interact with each other and respond and build and test and all of those things. So the most important thing is the space in between. And that is not the most important thing on the planet, but in this sphere that we're talking about. And that is where the facilitator and the expertise of people who can work in that space is so necessary, so invisible, and therefore so undervalued. I mean, profoundly, to the point that it doesn't even exist to most people, that there's someone that can help. Because everybody says to me, Oh, can you just give me a couple pointers so that I can go have this dialogue? I'm like, seriously, like, would you say that to a heart surgeon? You know what I mean? Like, you know, you can't do your own heart surgery. You've got to have people. I mean, you have to have people with expertise. And most of us don't even know a person who has that kind of expertise. Therefore, we don't even know it's possible. And so I feel like we fail so often because we just don't even know there's a resource. And it's sad for me to watch happen over and over and over again.
SPEAKER_03I I definitely share with Sam's sentiment. It's it it is so easy to say, oh, I can do that, I can facilitate a conversation. But I think when you see it though, you see it happen, you're like, wow, this is this is a little harder. I say a little, a lot harder than you think. But I think I do think that because of the people I've gotten to learn from, whether it's professors or friends or family, it's so important to just put yourself out there and to really be open-minded. And I there's someone I was at a networking event recently, and someone asked, Oh, well, what are you what is your goal the uh uh in terms of being here? And I said, I don't really have a goal in terms of when I go out and meet people. I just you you just have to meet people. And you have to just, you know, uh because I don't know these people. So how would you know what to look for if you don't know them? And uh I I do think that value of you know putting yourself out there, I think this is also a great feature of facilitators that they really put themselves out there to facilitate and uh uh not necessarily just only be like a traffic cop, but really to I think the presence of that facilitator is so, so key. Well, Lori and Sam, I'd like to now move to the the last about 20 minutes or so, and we're gonna kind of shift gears. I mean, it's not really shifting gears a whole lot because we're really just building on what we've discussed already. And since race, ethnic, and culture is is uh cover so many different areas, I figure it would be best to hone in on one topic area just to demonstrate to people what it's like to discuss something that, of course, Sam, in your social mining team classes, you've had people of mixed race backgrounds there to talk a bit more about their uh their stories. And I like I'd like to start our conversation. This is very much an uh a semi-open discussion here, but uh and as we've talked a little bit before uh of our recording. Uh my mi I'm a mixed race. Uh it was something I didn't really think about a lot because I guess you just kind of go with with some other priorities in life, you know, trying to figure out how the world works, and it was already kind of complex. It still is complex and to in many ways. But I didn't really think about it a whole lot. I just felt that um I felt like I I was just me and I I've encountered people of all different backgrounds and whatnot, but then over time you start to you start to notice, you start to see. In some ways. On one hand, when you see that maybe on through the news that uh that there's a certain group is uh where someone's been targeted because of their race, then you start to see some of the stories. You don't really change, I I think in my my my world, that don't I really change it doesn't change a whole lot about maybe how I see myself, but I definitely am more conscious of it now in terms of how people describe their identity and describe in terms of race, ethnicity, and culture. The other thing too is uh I think as someone who's mixed race is people always wonder, they don't they don't always know exactly what sort of combination I have, but they know I'm mixed. And so the the question is oftentimes is like, well, what are you? Like what what what are you a mix of? It's it's kind of a uh not interesting uh question too, because uh I always kind of wonder, it's like, oh, I wonder why they don't ask who you are instead of what are you. Uh I think they have good intention, they just they're just they just want to know. But I I it's it's really an interesting uh combination where I get to share, I get to tell people, I get to embrace both sides of me uh as an American. I get to, you know, for example, if I go to my or my dad's Orthodox Church or I talk a little bit about my dad's side, then I feel that Ukrainian side of me, I guess. Or maybe when maybe when I'm posing for a picture, I'm not smiling. Maybe that's that's a stereotype of Eastern Europeans or something. Uh and on the other side, uh, as I mentioned to both of you, I speak Mandarin to my mom, and I get to embrace that side of me. And I'm very proud of who I am. And uh and um it's because of again the the people I'm surrounded, uh surrounded with that make me who I am. So I I like to just kind of open up to uh to maybe uh Lori first and then Sam uh in terms of what what what sort of elements of the discussion uh do you think are are important or something that you you thought about when you heard the topic of mixed race in America.
SPEAKER_01Well, when I hear you talk about yourself as a mixed person, I and you say that you, you know, you just grew up as yourself. Um you didn't really think about it. And and I think that's a a particular thing that's really important. And it's it is just a whatever kind of thing if nobody makes it an issue for you. But if the entire so the social world around you makes it an issue or your family makes it an issue, uh then it's an issue. And so I think the reason that mixed race people why we even talk about it is because for certain groups of people that is an issue or was an issue, you know, um, depending on if we're talking historically or or we're talking now.
SPEAKER_02And so And when you when you say issue, what do you mean by that?
SPEAKER_01Meaning it's a conflict. So you actually can't wait. Can I just go yeah, go ahead, go ahead because your people are either at war with each other, at war. I say that, I use that very broadly, but um or it means something that means you're lesser of a person. So I'm just thinking of white and black people, right? People who are mixed in that way, and just think of it historically for that person who is white and black, for many, for many of those people that you were less of somebody because you you were not just white, you were also black. And it and also you're not fully black, although the black community would have probably embraced you more so. But that means you're not white, right? And so when when communities are at odds or there's imbalance, you know, asymmetry in the communities, um, then it's very different. Or even if your orthodox family and the other side of your family are at war with each other or don't like those two things, then it is an issue. Then you will grow up knowing it's an issue, and then you will choose side, you have to choose. And I think the most important thing with for me about mixed people who grow up with that tension, you know, not by their own choice, but by the communities that they happen to be born into, they have the ability, they know they're the people that know that you have to be, you are both, and that this idea that we have to choose one or the other is foolish, ridiculous, and impossible. And yet people do it all the time. And I always say to mixed people, you are our leaders, like because you're the you are part of both communities, and no one can tell you you're not, even though everybody does tell you that. Um, and again, not people like you who've grown up where those things maybe you have more to say, but aren't necessarily in so much tension that you were aware of it. That's what I would say. That's where I would start with mixed people.
SPEAKER_02So I would so Lori and you, Lori, grew up mixed in the sense of ethnic or culturally in the sense of you know, Polish on your mother's side and Irish on your father's side.
SPEAKER_01But more the mix the the tension was more it with um Catholic and Protestant.
SPEAKER_02Catholic and Protestant, yeah, yeah. Um so what's interesting with Lori, Lori and I, a difference. I don't fully a different well, your your work, Lori, has just so become grounded in conflict because that's that's what you're doing. You're training conflict facilitators. So it's so interesting.
SPEAKER_01Life is grounded in conflict.
SPEAKER_02When you know, when you say the issue for me, I think, well, mixed, yeah, I think mixed ancestry, the issue of misinterpretation, it's not issue as a problem, it's it's it's an opportunity. You you just you just engaged in the conflict area of it, it's an issue for people. For me, it's an issue for everybody in that it's just something that's unique about them. So it's something that's not unique, right? I mean, or or so or not unique, yeah. But if it's not unique, then that's its own issue or subject of conversation. And uh I just find because I'm so fascinated by the world, and I'm very much a globalist, and I study cultures all over the world, and I'm interested in any culture anywhere, that when someone says they're mixed, uh, to me, that's wow, it just adds something, uh, a greater level of of analysis to somebody's life, right? So, and it we we all and we all bring it, you know. Me, I'm I'm a mixed of a lot of you know, Western European backgrounds. My culture, my ethnicity was not important to me growing up. Um, we never talked about it. It was I was just you know, middle American, white, working class kid. Um, but I find it really fascinating. So, you know, for you and in your case, Sherman, you know, the fact that you you bring these different nations and cultures together uh in your life, you know, like wow, what these like awesome opportunities.
SPEAKER_00You have like the best of both worlds experience, right? Which is what you we would hope everybody would have.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, or they would they would at least see it as like there's these are just really cool things to talk about. Like, why not talk about our our so-called race, you know, whatever that really is, but you know, our ethnicity culture and that sort of thing.
SPEAKER_01But Sam, if you I'm gonna say but if you want to not take it from like the sociological, the conflict part, which I I respect. I I also think it's interesting the way in which the human family is designed, which is I think for the most part, it's like you bring two family, two people from two families together, right? Which are just inherently different humans. And so there's always a mixing of differences to create, you know, man, woman creating a child, which is I, and then a family. And so it's interesting that at some point there's a point where like that's too different, you you know what I mean? Or for some people, it's too different. That's the only reason we have that conversation, otherwise, it would just be what it is, which is different people coming into it.
SPEAKER_02Or they're not it, yeah, or they're not intrigued enough about it to talk about it, you know. It's like currently, you know, like let's take let's stop talking about race and ethnicity. So I'm like, why? This is so interesting, it's so cool. Like, let's let's talk more about it.
SPEAKER_01But it's not just race and ethnicity, it's class, it's class, it's gender, everything.
SPEAKER_02Talk about all of it, you know, like all these different, you know, look, gender is the it's this huge spectrum. So, like, why can't let's talk about all these different places, these dozens of places, hundreds of places you could be on this spectrum of gender. It's like, why why not why not engage in that? But you know, like well, because some people come along and they start making demands about how to engage in it, and then that's a problem. But otherwise, it's just uh everything is just so fascinating, you know.
SPEAKER_01But it also creates like society, and so I'm just being the sociologist here, but society has certain structures, right? So even if you just use class, right? There uh there's a lot of reasons. This is a functionalist argument. There's a lot of reasons for people to stay in their lane, you know, because because you you disrupt things when you actually cross over into or into above or below a different culture. And so that changes the culture, it changes the people, it forces questioning of more morale and norm, I mean, sorry, morals and norms and things, values. And so it's disruptive to society. This is a functionalist argument for these things to happen. And so I don't think it's just fascinating or not. I think it's also challenges the structure of a society, of a culture, of a community. And you know, if you have if you're Catholic and suddenly you have people coming in and like set talking about a completely different set of religious, spiritual, existential values, it it's disruptive.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so listen, there are limits to that, right? So let's say, Sherman, you've got to decide for the census, right? Okay, we gotta we have to count people in the United States, all right? So we want to count. Every nation does a census, so we want to figure this out, right? So then, you know, for the first time 10 or 15 years ago, we allowed people to actually write down what they said their background was. Well, you just get literally thousands upon thousands of boxes, new boxes that you create, right? Okay, we can't have that. I mean, they well, we can because it's really interesting, but there's not much we can do with it. And so then the problem becomes when somebody like Sherman here decides, hey, I'm I'm you know, I'm not just white, uh, I'm not just mixed, I'm I'm white and you and Taiwanese. Oh, wait a minute, I'm Ukrainian and Taiwanese, and Ukraine is not the same as being white. I'm Eastern European and I'm Taiwanese, and then but I'm not just Taiwanese because I'm and then you start making demands that other people see you in a certain way and think about these things in a certain way, and that's when it becomes disruptive. Because otherwise, for me, my job as a as a professor is to say, hey, yeah, there are limitations as to what we can do and what we can accept and should accept. Uh, but but in the meantime, um, let's just be curious about all of it, you know.
SPEAKER_01But but I think it's not just accepting it or not accepting it, I forget what word you used, but it because I'm thinking about Korea, South Korea right now. And I'm thinking of the Sam and I just did a deep dive into the declining birth rate, the dangerously declined birth rate. And when you and so one of the and and so, okay, that's one thing. But the other, and then another conflict, so a conflict there is in terms of the culture. Like what is Korea? What is Korean? And how will we be Korean if we have all these immigrants coming into Korea who don't share our values, who do not share our language, do not share our history, do not share the basic assumptions that we have in social life. And so, and I think that's partly why people, you know, in places where there's tourism, they're like tourists and us, you know, this is how we operate.
SPEAKER_02Like in Spain right now. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And so I don't think it's it's just about acceptance because at some point we're gonna say, that's not how we do it here. We respect our elders, for example. We treat them this way, and you want to treat everybody the same, okay. I can accept it, but not in my culture, not in the one I'm building, not in the way I've set things up. Yeah. And so there anyway, so there's and it doesn't mean that a mixed person is gonna like throw an entire society upside down, but it we do have to acknowledge that people who mix, while I think that that is sort of a natural process of people in you know interacting with each other, you know, groups of people, yeah. There is a way in which it will upend a social order. And again, let me but it's also real, all right.
SPEAKER_02So, like a mixed person, like you, chairman, you're gonna have these sides of you that come into conflict a little bit because you Taiwanese culture and Ukrainian culture are very different, and so they live in a com in a in a way inside of you, and that's kind of emblematic or symbolic of how it exists out in the world, and so you know, you come to terms with that, we come to terms with that. And maybe your mother didn't teach you to speak Mandarin, right? Maybe she decided, like so many immigrants decide when they have a child. I don't, I won't, I don't want you to be confused. I want you to be an American and you need to speak English. And so I didn't teach you any Mandarin, like on your father's side, at some point in time, they stopped teaching people, I don't know what generation it was, but they stopped teaching Ukrainian. I'm like, why just not teach your kids Ukrainian, man? Just don't speak to them in English, just demand that they learn Ukrainian, like and so like, but if she had done that, then you would be here saying, like, well, you know, so I have my mom's Taiwanese, and I'm kind of a little bit connected to the culture, but I don't speak the language, and so and that would be perfectly fine. Also, it's fine for me. I would prefer because of who I am. I'd prefer if I were you that I learned Taiwanese Mandarin and I learned Ukrainian.
SPEAKER_01Uh but and and it would be okay. And I'm saying, I didn't, you know, people in my family stopped speaking. My grandfather spoke Polish, he went to a Polish school. He didn't teach anybody else because it was the same thing, you know, nobody speaks Irish. It was just like this, you're American. So I wish I had been spoken to in that those languages. So I had that in my in my world. At the same time, I'm also seeing, and this is for me an experience of just being in Korea and watching another culture evolve or devolve, I don't know, depending on which way it goes. There is something about people having a shared language. But I'm not saying people shouldn't speak 15 languages, but I'm saying, like, I start I've I've come to understand why a society would say, but no, we speak Mandarin here. This is how it is. And so you can do whatever else you want, but you're definitely speaking this language because we have to speak to each other. We have to make decisions as a society. So again, functionalist argument, but I still I see real reasons why there's a tension and why mixed people sometimes, depending on that the communities that they're that they're of are you know, feel that more intensely in a way that is really hard to live with for some people, just again, depending on where they are in their community and the history of those cultures. But by the way, Sherman, this is how Sam and I, this is what we do every day. I love it.
SPEAKER_03I I love it. I I love the dynamic because it really feeds into what we were talking about earlier, right? About how dynamic these conversations have to be. It's not just one person, uh person A says something person B, then person B says something person A, then uh rinse and repeat. It's it's really but it's it's it's it's bouncing on what what people are saying, you know, the responses and whatnot. And and I think uh I think you both made such great points there because uh well and you Sam you mentioned language. I was I learned Mandarin since I was a kid, but my on my dad's side, when my great-grandparents came, they didn't teach their my grandparents the language. I think part of it was maybe because this was you know in the in the aftermath of the you know the the first Red Scare in the 1910s. Uh certainly immigrants from that part of the world were not uh were not very regarded very positively uh in terms of political ideology and whatnot. Uh which is uh so that was that was one bit. But I I do think you know this is such a fascinating topic for for all the reasons that you both mentioned, because it's it it's it's really stepping away and and and really reflecting and thinking about uh how it is and and that uh that we can we can better discuss this just in general as a society, because uh I don't I don't feel offended when people say when people try to guess or they only think I'm white or they only think I'm Asian, depending on what we're part of the world. If I'm in Taiwan, I'm definitely a w the white guy there. But uh here it's a bit of a bit of a combination. Uh but I don't feel offended at all. I think it's because uh I've really sort of embraced that, I think both that you can say tension, not in certain adversarial way, but just the fact that they're they're different, they don't fit completely together as puzzle pieces in in terms of their characteristics, but also the fact that it's because of these other institutions in my life, whether it be school, whether it be family, whether it be uh or just social relationships, uh I've those all all I've seen those as the glue that keeps me together in a way, I think without those uh institutions or religion. Uh my my dad's Christian, my mom's Buddhist, but because my parents together, they we we all volunteer for a Buddhist-based charity, but because we're so invested in the actual charity work and the fact that we see that you were we're basically talking about the same values of kindness and generosity and all that, but just in different ways. Um I s I start to see that too. So it really is, I think, a testament to to the to to the village around me, the people who really who've cared for me for for so long and continue to do so.
SPEAKER_01This is what this is you're saying something, a small part of what I mean when I say mixed people need to lead us, and with with ownership of, or internalization is a better word, with really internalizing the bothness, right? So the Buddhist and the Christian parts of you, you're you're like, I find what is what is the thread, the dynamic thread of those religious traditions or spiritual traditions, and that's what I live. But now, but you know how to look for that in divergent things, right? You don't have to just be like it's this or it's this. You're like, oh, but what if I'm doing both? And I that's why I'm like mixed people, rah-rah.
SPEAKER_03I'm doing my best, uh trying my best on that. Uh and uh again, so great again, have these four uh for that and uh World Conversation Social Mining Team. Uh what a what a great two uh spaces for that. So I'm I'm really glad. I'm really I'm really glad we had that uh that exchange air. Uh I before we wrap up, uh, because I know uh we we could be talking about this all day, I'm sure. Um I want to be conscious of of your time, of course. And I like to really wrap this all up. Uh this is a kind of a bit of a tradition on friends and fellow citizens, and uh we we really try to reflect on George Washington's farewell address, which is the basis of the program. So really reflecting on patriotism, faith, uh, national unity, education, fiscal responsibilities, and civility. Those are the kind of pillars of that address. And I'll start with Sam this time. Uh and and I like to for each of you to uh share a bit about how you think your projects, whether it be World and Conversation, Social 119, and your your career, how those relate to those kinds of values that I just mentioned and and kind of the ways we can uh tie it all together and and talk about race, ethnicity, and culture in in in in these with these sorts of pillars in mind.
SPEAKER_02You know, when I think back to uh the late uh uh 1700s and and I think about you know, I have to I take myself back to actually the the sociological realities of the time. You know, people weren't in communication with people very far away. Very few people were traveling further than you know 20 or 30 miles uh at any one time. There wasn't news of the day. It was all and when you got it, it was pretty scattered and you and uh and no one know knew what was gonna happen to this land, no one had a sense of what it was and what it could be. And then I think of all of the the troubling parts, you know, the genocide and slavery and so on, right? The ways in which the indigenous peoples were uh treated. I mean it could have gone in so many different directions, and it could have gone fur much further south. I mean, you know, but it's pretty serious to think about, you know, the the probably the most longest, most extensive, longest lasting genocide, again, to use that word, uh occurred, you know, in the Americas, in slavery as we saw it here. So it was pretty troubling in a way, and yet somehow there was this other force that was in play and that helped to continue to create this. nation to be the the this most amazing experiment you know so it it's these two things together right it's uh nobody could ever predict that that this country could be in this kind of multicultural multinational multi-ethnic multi-religious and racial mix that it is and that we've only had one civil war which is pretty phenomenal um so for me I think about in the end it really is based on people being able to have the kind of kind of conversations that Lori and I have been part of creating um that we have between us um and that that are really instrumental you know the hard issues the and ultimately becoming fascinated with the other because that's of course what makes the United States what it is that people in the end when they meet people face to face they're fascinated with the other and that's what you know kind of scares me a little bit about some of the more recent trends of of uh of of not embracing that you know that's that's a bit of a problem and a concern for me. But anyway that's what I think about when I think about Washington.
SPEAKER_01And when I think about this guy who could have gone in a very different direction you know he could have just stayed on as leader as many people wanted him to do but yet he you know they was part of handing power down and disseminating that power and that was so important that was probably the m most critical moment in US history was that moment when Washington gave up the presidency and said no I'm not gonna I'm not gonna keep going yeah very well said very well said uh Lori Well um I'm I'm gonna just say something I've not ever said publicly because when you said you listed patriotism etc and civility those are the two words that that jumped out patriotism is an interesting thing and when I was a senior in high school I wrote in my in the you know you know we put something under your name in the yearbook and it was something about what are my goals my life goals I don't even have life goals but I had one when I was 17 and it was to significantly prove my patriotism whatever that means I I don't know but I you know took a real journey from that point on where I really I must have felt some kinship with this place. I don't know why I was too young to to know anything but I I I'll just say that but I took a journey to really a great disappointment with the things that I learned about this place. I mean we could you know history of of a genocide of slavery and of just other things that are just human constructions that happen and and so to think I'm gonna prove my patriotism became something of you know quite a joke to myself. But at the same time I think that the work that I do now and in particular now I'm starting an initiative that is called red blue dialogues. And in the moment that we're in once again I think we don't have to be this othering and dehumanizing to each other. Like we are not that far apart on anything and it when you really come together with humans and and kind of hash things out.
SPEAKER_03And so I think um maybe somewhere when I look back on my life I'll see something of this work that I didn't choose but that really chose me as some contribution to you know this land that um you know that have all kinds of uh senses of what it's about but I I do think that the people here if given the opportunity uh to be seen fully for who they are no matter who they are um can can become something that is that is uh you know has more unity to it so that's what I think of when I when I think of the pieces of that farewell address amen to what what you both said I I think George Washington would be a good candidate to be a facilitator world of conversation what do you think definitely you just need to enroll in Penn State that that was all the only thing he had to he had to do with Ben Franklin maybe uh maybe he wouldn't have been able to do that funny well laurie and Sam uh I will be sure to include the links to World of Conversation Sochwine and teen down in the show notes below uh but before we we we sign off I just like to say once again thank you both for for coming onto the podcast and and really for all you do uh I I am at a the University of Alabama and of course you can call all the college students around and I and to know that there are people like yourselves who uh have invested so much in young people and who are now going to be out there um and and to be able to talk about these issues uh so constructive so much more constructively and to be able to let them express themselves and for you both to have done all the work that you've done to to let that happen, let them blossom I I I really I really look up to both of you.
SPEAKER_02And I'm not just saying that as a as a PhD candidate and looking to complete a degree I'm also saying that because I really think w what you both do is truly honorable and something that I hope will grow uh grow beyond just Penn State and beyond beyond Pennsylvania beyond our country and I'm sure it's already have already uh had and then such an impact across the world and uh just once again thank thank you both for for the conversation we had and I imagine that the the the dynamic energy and and and all that you bring to to the uh different groups and the and the different classes uh it's it's truly admirable so uh thank you thank you both so much for coming on our podcast I really appreciate it thank you for finding us and for lifting up the work in this way and it's really our honor to work uh the way we have and to meet you yeah thanks Sharon I really appreciate it and good luck with with all of your work and your PhD studies and so on it's a great it's a it's a fun journey isn't it graduate school when you didn't when you you know you kind of get into it it's really a lot of fun thank you all so much for listening to this episode I hope you enjoyed it make sure to check out the links down in the show notes below have a great rest of your day and rest of your week and remember a day in America is always better when we are with our friends and fellow citizens
