Friends & Fellow Citizens
In this unique civics podcast, discover how the principles of George Washington's Farewell Address (patriotism, civility, faith, education, national unity, and fiscal responsibility) apply to today! With a focus on American political institutions and policymaking, hear fascinating stories and discussions that any America-loving listener can enjoy!
This non-partisan podcast is a remarkable mix of solo shows, interviews and special guests that gives you a great boost of freedom! New episodes on the first two Mondays of each month!
Friends & Fellow Citizens
#174: July 4th Special - Identities of Independence and Perseverance by Americans of Taiwanese Ancestry feat. Oceana Ling-Kurie (林小海)
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
With the Fourth of July weekend just around the corner, this episode celebrates the independence and resilience of our country. For decades, Americans of Taiwanese descent have demonstrated these values as part of the melting pot story of America.
Oceana Ling-Kurie (林小海), the reigning Miss International Taiwan 2024 and an aspiring actress and model, shares her story and lessons of living in two different cultures on either end of the great Pacific Ocean in her early life. She also discusses the significance of what it means to be an American of Taiwanese descent and the value of treasuring our country's Independence Day.
Follow Oceana (@oceanaxh) on Instagram!
Visit georgewashingtoninstitute.org to sign up for our e-mail list! The site is the one-stop shop of all things Friends & Fellow Citizens and George Washington Institute!
JOIN as a Patreon supporter and receive a FREE Friends & Fellow Citizens mug at the $25 membership level!
IMPORTANT NOTE/DISCLAIMER: All views expressed by the host are presented in his personal capacity and do not officially represent the views of any affiliated organizations. All views presented by guests are solely those of the interviewees themselves and may or may not represent the views of their affiliated organizations, the host, Friends & Fellow Citizens, and/or The George Washington Institute.
Yeah, it was a re reverse culture shock. Because in a way, like, you know, spending those seven years in Taiwan, obviously, it really changed my view. It really changed a lot of my habits. I was completely changed as a person from leaving the states to going back to the states. So in a way, I had to kind of relearn my American identity and relearn the American culture as well because I was gone for it for so long.
SPEAKER_01Patriotism, faith, national unity, education, fiscal responsibility, civility, the values that define America. Fascinating stories and talks from America-loving patriots dedicated to preserving freedom, opportunity, and justice. Welcome to the Friends and Fellow Citizens Podcast. Hello, everybody. This is Sherman Talowski, your host of the Friends and Fellow Citizens Podcast. Thank you all so much for joining me in this surprise interview special episode. We are having our Independence Day later this week, obviously, for the week of when this episode is aired. So if you are new to this podcast, welcome aboard. And firstly, a big thank you to our dedicated Patreon supporters. They really help keep the show going. So if you are enjoying our content, would like additional benefits, including bonus content, even podcast mugs, check out our Patreon page in the show notes below. If you haven't already, make sure to hit and smash that subscribe button or sign up for our email list at our website, George Washington Institute.org. For our Fourth of July special episode, I have a very special guest joining our program today. I hope you will get to see some of the resemblance she and I have regarding our backgrounds as Americans of Taiwanese descent. So hope you enjoy this conversation with Oceana Ling Curie. Alright, everybody. Well, I'm excited to have Oceana onto the program. Oceana, so great to talk with you today across the Pacific Ocean and living the United States here.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Yeah. Hi, Sherman, and hi everyone. My name is Oceana. Um I'm currently in Taiwan, but we'll talk more about my background in a bit. But um I'm also American. I'm Taiwanese American.
SPEAKER_01Fantastic. Well, before we get our conversation, I'd just like to tell everybody why we're here because I want to make this a pretty unique episode. I mean, usually when we talk about Taiwan as an example, we often talk about policies, a civics, all that's what Friends and Fellow Citizens is all about. It's about having these honest conversations and dialogues on Washington's farewell address and the related themes here, which a couple we'll get to later. But this conversation is all about just getting to know uh a different side of the American experience. Because I I I think as Oceana could probably relate, you know, myself as a Taiwanese American, you yourself as a Taiwanese American, we have some very unique experiences, and I really want to highlight that through someone like yourself, because you've obviously dedicated so much of a career to education and to uh things that are just beyond uh what the most people in their 20s do, and and I really admire that. So we're gonna kind of get into that, but also to have uh you talk a little bit more about this experience of being half Taiwanese and half American, and this is I think a critical part, particularly as we are getting to the 4th of July weekend when this episode is released, and we're gonna talk all about Independence Day, too. So we'll we'll get into all sorts of things, but uh Oceana, let's talk a bit about yourself. So you are are someone who grew up as half Taiwanese and half-American, so it's obviously an interesting story there. So can you give us uh an overview of your background here?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. All right, so um I was born in the States. I was born in New York. My dad is European descendant, American, and my mom is Taiwanese. So she actually immigrated to the States when she was in her um early 20s, and then she did her master's degree there and then ended up working there and staying there for several years. So she met my dad when they were in their late 30s, and that's how they had me. Um, and then at the age of about four or five, I moved to San Francisco with my family, and then I was there until the age of nine. And so when I was nine, my grandfather on my mom's side, so he was in Taiwan, um, he was quite ill. And my mom being the eldest child, she kind of wanted to go back to Taiwan and take care of her family because she has been in the States for several years, right? And she never really went back and, you know, kind of got involved in family dynamics. She decided it would also be a great opportunity for me to kind of connect with my Asian culture and language. Because at that point in time, I would say that I was quite an American kid, like very um, you know, just I didn't really get exposed to Chinese culture at all. Um, and I didn't speak the language. So my mom thought it was a great opportunity for me to kind of connect with that, and also my my Taiwanese family as well, right? So I came to Taiwan for the first time. I mean, I did visit when I was very, very young, but only, you know, visiting, so I didn't remember much. So I came to Taiwan for the first time when I was nine, and I didn't speak the language, started with public school, so I didn't go to an international school. I went straight into public school. Everything was in Chinese, so I didn't understand anything, and it was very stressful. But you know, I went through the culture shock and all that, and I gradually got used to it, and I grew a lot, and I'll probably talk about this later. After that, when I was 14, 15, I moved back to the States for high school, and then I went to Canada for university. So that's kind of my whole life story.
SPEAKER_01That that's a great sketch of your future autobiography, which will be published maybe sometime.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_01That's amazing. I mean, I I I like how your mom recognized that you needed to know your Taiwanese side, and for her to make that leap of faith in a way, to bring you to a the country where you didn't speak the language. And let me tell you, I've I haven't been in Chinese classes, I definitely know the feeling of not knowing what is being said in in a lot of different contexts, because Chinese is a very unique subject in so many ways, but very, very colorful language, but nonetheless still very difficult. I'd like to, before we get to uh some of those stages of your life, your name is very unique because uh I think that's what's stood out to me a lot when I read about your bio. So can you tell us a bit more about uh your name, not just the English name, but also the the I guess you can say say your name in Chinese as well for the record.
SPEAKER_00For my English name, Oceana, it's a Greek name, it's actually of Greek origin. And I um from my understanding, my parents named me Oceana because my mom really loves the ocean. So that's one aspect, but also because um in Chinese zodiac signs and Chinese culture, I was born in the year of a dragon. And in like in like mythology, I guess, dragons come out of the ocean, like Chinese mythology. For my Chinese name, actually, my my real Chinese name is Ling Pei Rong, which has nothing to do with ocean. Um, I'm not quite sure how my mom got that name, to be honest, but I do know for my nickname. So my Chinese nickname is Xiaohai, which is what I usually go by. And that name was given by my grandfather, the grandfather that eventually passed away in Taiwan. And he named me that because when I came to Taiwan when I was a baby, my he was asking my mom, like, oh, what's my English name, Oceana? And he he can't really pronounce it. So he was like, Okay, what's the what's the meaning of the name, which is Ocean? And she was like, Okay, that's perfect. I'll I'll just call her Xiao, Little Ocean. And so I guess it kind of stuck with me for my whole life, and that's kind of the name that I go by professionally and also in my personal life as well.
SPEAKER_01That's that's amazing. I mean, the to have that connection, right, with uh just an amazing phenomenon in history, too. I mean, the ocean is as part of mythology, right? And uh and I will say in in in in Chinese, when you say xiao, something like xiao means little, right? But it's also kind of an endearing way of calling someone. So uh mine is kind of tricky because mine would be xiao xing, but xiao xing also means careful. So I guess this is a good thing, you know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Xiao Xing, yeah.
SPEAKER_01But we love we love calling each other that uh back in the the school I went to. And I I want to touch upon now this on this uh part of your life where you're moving to a new country because obviously your your grandfather uh needed uh the support and the love and care from your mom, which I I highly admire as well. Walk us through what that felt like you know when you first got there. Now I know it was a while ago, but what what sort of elements of that culture shock you did you feel the most when you got to Taiwan?
SPEAKER_00I mean, I would say Taiwan, because I went to Taijiang, that's where my family's from. So we're not we're not from Taipei, which is where I live now. For those who haven't been to Taiwan, like Taipei's more in a way, international, because it's a very international city, actually, and a lot of foreigners here. The infrastructure in general, like there's a lot of mix of old infrastructure and new infrastructure. Whereas I would say in Taijiang, um, it's a lot less international. In a way, when I came to when I first went to Taijiang, I was kind of surprised that it almost like I don't want to say this in a way that it seems um rude, but in a way I did feel like it was kind of backward in time, almost. Um, you know, coming from growing up in New York and San Francisco, and then going to a relatively small city in Taiwan, um, especially it was like more than 10 years ago. I did feel like I was almost going back in time in a way, in the sense of the environment and infrastructure, and also sometimes culturally too, because you know, Taiwan holds a lot of very um traditional aspects of our culture, especially when it comes to like Buddhism or like temples and stuff like that. There were many aspects of my life where I felt like um, yeah, it was like very foreign. When I was going to elementary school, every day I would walk by this Chinese instrument store. And actually, that's very crucial to my upbringing because I ended up learning the Chinese zither, which is a very old Chinese instrument. It's a string instrument with 21 strings, and it's almost my height, pretty much. It's like 160 something centimeters long. Um, so yeah, I ended up learning the Chinese zither. Every time I would walk back from school, I would walk by the Chinese instrument store and I would listen to you know the Chinese music. It was so like special to me. Like it was it was very interesting because the sound is very, very different from what I was used to with like Western music, right? So that really intrigued me. Um, and then I remember every morning walking to school, I would walk by a temple, a Buddhist temple. And because my family is, I would say somewhat Buddhist, like okay, so in in Taiwan, I would say Buddhism is a bit interesting because it's not only a religion, but it's also in some way a tradition as well, like a cultural tradition. So you don't have to be super Buddhist, but in some way we do still follow like Buddhist traditions, right? So I remember um like my family's not extremely Buddhist, but we do still follow the tradition. So every morning when I go to school, my mom or my grandma would be would tell me, Oh, you have to stop by the temple real quick and do a little bow and say a quick prayer. And all of that's like extremely foreign to me. So um, yeah, there were like these little aspects that in some way were fun, like those those stuff were fun. And then there were a lot of things that were very stressful. Most of the most of it was school related because I didn't speak the language. Um, and this is kind of a stereotype, but it is true that math is more advanced here. And so, you know, I was taking math courses that I wasn't really ready for, and so I also kind of had to like jump into that and get kind of just you know, swim and get used to it. So school-related stuff was very stressful for me, and I remember crying every day after school for at least a month, maybe, or a couple weeks. So those were some of the transition stuff that I really struggled with. I also struggled a lot with communicating with my grandma. So when I first came to Taiwan, my mom and I were living with my grandmother, and my grandma she doesn't speak English. And to be honest, she doesn't really speak Chinese much at all either. Because so, for those who don't know, um, Taiwan is the main language is Mandarin Chinese, but we also have several other languages as well, one being Taiwanese, so what we call Minanese. Um, and then we also have Hakka, we also have a lot of Aboriginal um like native languages as well. My grandma she mostly speaks Taiwanese, and I could barely I could barely handle Chinese. So Taiwanese is also like another dialect that I couldn't really communicate with her with. And so we also had a lot of communication issues in the beginning of our relationship.
SPEAKER_01That's so fascinating because I I don't know how you fell about just the language of Chinese, right? But it it seems to me that at least when I was younger, it the Chinese seemed to be like a transactional language where it was kind of a way to overcome the language barriers. That was kind of the main purpose. At least that's how I felt because I was, of course, living in America. I'm of course never have lived in Taiwan, so obviously our experience is different that way. But given that you had those challenges of learning how do you having to learn the language while trying to speak at the same time, which is really difficult. Yeah. Yeah. The meaning of Chinese initially became transactional. And then over time, I guess because of the cultural stuff, the things that you were talking about, about the temples and just the vibe, and when you meet people, that's when language starts to become now a culture. Now it doesn't just become a way to translate what you want to say in English turn into Chinese, and or vice versa. It's now something far more just a transition. It's now, you know, you kind of live it by speaking it. And you know, my mom when I was a kid, she ult uh is has instituted up until this day that I only speak Mandarin to her. And there I tell you, there's a lot of parents, even in America, who are like, why what? Like, why would you, you know, why why would you speak the language only to your son? What if he tries to respond in in English and my mom just said, Well, I just don't answer? So uh it seems like you you also had that kind of interesting experience where you you went to Taiwan and I mean to live, right, to communicate with others, you had to learn and have that willingness to learn and to drive, but also encounter those challenges too of trying to communicate with people. Uh is is what what do you make of just like uh over as you kind of look back, right? What sort of big things did you take away from in terms of the the experience of living in Taiwan versus maybe say say if you stay in the States and you learned Chinese at a Chinese school or something, would uh what sort of big impacts do you think this life in Taiwan had was for you when you were younger?
SPEAKER_00Well, actually, so when I was in San Francisco, um I did go to first of all a Saturday or Sunday like Chinese school. And then I also for my regular everyday school, I went to a private Cantonese school. So I was kind of learning Chinese um in when I was still in the States. However, like to be honest, I didn't really learn much. I mean, I guess every student has a different experience, but I didn't really learn that much from my weekend Chinese schools for the Cantonese school. In a way, it wasn't really immersive enough for me. Like I felt like because it was a bilingual school, so more or less the kids mostly spoke in English with each other, and it it almost felt like, oh, we were just forced to learn a bit of Chinese, right? So, and also my mom, unlike your mom, she didn't force me to speak Chinese at home with her. So I also didn't get that um educational upbringing. One thing I would say though, which I think did influence how much I learned Chinese when I was still in the States, was that to be honest, I felt I always felt like I was such a normal kid. Like I wasn't in any way outstanding in terms of education or extracurriculars or arts or sports or whatever. Like I was such a it, and that's how I viewed myself. Like I was such a mediocre kid. When I came to Taiwan, that's when I feel like everything changed because I started to actually enjoy learning. Like I started to enjoy the process of learning new things and having the idea that you know learning itself is a skill, right? It's not just like you're not learning to actually know the knowledge, well, that's part of it, but also to train yourself to be able to learn, right? Learning is a skill. And so I feel like that's something that I learned in Taiwan, is that technically, if I put my mind to it and I have the right attitude, that I could technically learn anything. Because in Taiwan, that's that's kind of the opportunity that I was given. Like I was able to have all of these extracurricular activities. I started learning the flute, I started learning the Chinese zither, like I said. I did dance when I was in the States, but I was able to continue it here and learn more, like different types of dance. Um, I started to focus on my education a lot. And I think partially that's that's kind of like a cultural and environmental thing here in Asia, right? So I started to focus on my education a lot. And so overall, I kind of realized that actually, if I have the right attitude and I put my mind to it, I could technically learn anything. And I still keep that till this day. So I I love learning new things and I'm not afraid to pick up something new.
SPEAKER_01That's such a quality that we as Americans of Taiwanese are saying, get, I think, in some ways that that drive, right? And I completely relate to what you talk about with regards to the the the immersion difference, right? It's such a wildly different experience being in Taiwan. Even for me, I I've uh there were a couple times when I was there for several weeks at a time, uh, and it it's a totally different feeling um when I'm there, and and it's uh but it's also interesting too because you get to not only pride it to Chinese, right? But you also get to help some people with English too, which I thought was also kind of a added benefit as well. Because some people over there, they're like they they kind of insist they they speak English because part of it's like, well, uh, I think you know, Oceana or Sherman, they don't really know how to speak much Chinese, but then I we wow them, right? Yeah, yes. So there's a lot of that too. Let's look at now you going from Taiwan back to North America. Now I see North America is of course you went to uh the University of Toronto for you know your undergrad. By the way, I I just want to backtrack real quick to say that it's true, there's a lot of interesting connections we we have regarding our background because you talk about New York, my dad's from New York. Uh I live in San Francisco, I lived in the San Francisco Bay Area. Uh my roommate in college was from Toronto, actually not too far from U of T. So yeah, so it it's uh it's a lot of interesting coincidences here, and of course my monster Tai Chong as well.
SPEAKER_00Uh and oh yes, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Uh it's it's kind of wild. So uh I but uh I I want to now get to the North America bit. So when you go back to North America, what was that like? Kind of going from culture shock in Taiwan than now re-culture shocking in America.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it was a re-culture shock, actually. Because I mean, considering that I was born there and I technically grew up there for the first decade of my life, and then having to revisit it after like six, seven years, yeah, it was a re reverse culture shock. Because in a way, like, you know, spending those seven years in Taiwan, obviously, it really changed my view. It really changed a lot of my habits, sense of identity, also, you know, like just cult like cultural things that that I can never you know, like I I just I was completely changed as a person from leaving the states to going back to the states. In a way, I had to kind of relearn my American identity and relearn the American culture as well because I was gone for it for so long. It it was a little bit of a struggle, but the good thing I would say is that American culture is so diverse, one, and then two, it's also so um it's it's kind of everywhere in terms of media, right? So, like even when I was growing up in Taiwan, I was still watching a lot of like American TV shows or listening to American music. So, in a way, I was still attached to it. But I would say the hardest part was probably the interpersonal relationships, is what I had to relearn. Because, you know, you you learn different things at different stages in life, right? So when I came to Taiwan, I was at the ages of nine to 14 or so, nine to 15. And so for those years, you kind of learn a lot of, you know, how to interact with your friends, how to have like healthy peer relationships, etc. So I was very much used to the Asian way of interacting with my friends, or I was very much used to the Asian education system as well. Going back to the States for high school, though, I kind of had to readjust how I approached my friendships and speaking with my teachers or superiors or whatnot. And then also educationally as well, that was a huge challenge because I was not used to the American system where you're very much encouraged to speak up and you know, raise your hand in class or whatnot. In Asia, it's all about receiving information and memorization. In the States, it's all about debates, having discussions, having open conversation, thinking outside the box. And so, in that aspect, it's very much different. I was I was honestly very like overwhelmed by that. And that's kind of how I got into pageantry, and so we'll talk about that more later. Yeah, I was very much overwhelmed by that. Like I was so scared of raising my hand and asking questions. Like I felt like that was just so weird and abnormal to me. Um, and then you know, even with classes where public speaking classes where you're forced to stand in front of your whole class and have an opinion on something, like that that was so foreign to me. So those were some of the things that I really struggled with going back to the States. Obviously, pageantry helped me a lot with that.
SPEAKER_01So I we I remember those moments, you know, being in front of the class, and and I think what you have touched upon in our conversation about these differences. I I do think it's very important that Americans know about some of these differences because when we try and understand the world, right? You kind of alluded to this a bit, but it's true, America's everywhere. So in in many ways, we don't really need to know what goes on out there. I'm not saying that people shouldn't or can't un or they can't learn what happens beyond the American borders. What I'm saying is there's there's a necessity element too, and I think that's why when I went to Taiwan, and everyone's got an opinion about America, right? But for the longest time when I was here, I don't know how you've uh if you felt this way. There were times though where there were Americans who didn't even know what Taiwan was. Like they thought maybe it was like a city in China or Thailand a lot.
SPEAKER_00Thailand, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And and of course, not to mention they they couldn't locate it on a map. I mean, there's there's a lot of layers to it, but the things that you're talking about there, that's that's quite important as well, because we don't often think about the again, the that re-culture shotgun, which is a unique experience for you, but also we don't realize the necessity of knowing other countries, uh, and and it's very different than than someone so lives in Taiwan or in a lot of places. Yeah, let's let's talk about the patentry element here because uh that I also found interesting in your bio just about how you use that as part of the way to get past those challenges you talk about, particularly on public speaking, because that of course is a key component for patentry. Um what can you share with us about your patentry journey and and what what do you think it means for you to have accomplished what you've accomplished since you are the Iranian Miss Taiwan, the international?
SPEAKER_00Yes, I went back to the States and I was kind of struggling with that aspect of American education. So my mom thought of a way to kind of force me out of, in a way, my comfort zone and also kind of train me to get comfortable with speaking in public and having discussions with peers or or whatnot. She thought of pageantry because pageantry in a way is very it provides a very well-rounded training. So, what I mean by well-rounded is it's not only just standing on stage and looking pretty. I think in many ways, people kind of misunderstand pageantry as, you know, just having a good face or a good body and just stand on stage, right? And just walk around. But no, actually, there's a lot of aspects to it and there's a lot of layers to it. So I joined the Miss America organization, one of the biggest ones in the States. We have interviews before we go on stage, we have private interviews, we have on stage question, QA, we have a lot of things where we have to, you know, kind of sell yourself in a way. That's also something that I wasn't very used to, like selling yourself, being able to put yourself out there and be like, hey, I have these needs. I hope that, you know, we could work together, et cetera. So we also had that aspect and in the sense that we had to find sponsors. We had a lot of volunteer events as well. So there were a lot of things that I felt like I kind of lacked in my Asian education background that pageantry really helped with. I actually really, really appreciate my pageantry experience. And I've been doing it for eight years. I started in high school, right? When I figured out that, you know, my high school education was kind of lacking in some aspects. So I joined pageantry. I started in high school. I did it through college as well. I was Miss Chinese Toronto. I was supposed to join an international competition, um, but then it was COVID. It was during COVID, so it got canceled. And then I came to Taiwan and I decided to do it kind of one last time because I really wanted to at least get that international experience in. Like you said, I am the reigning Miss Taiwan. Um my reign's about to end this year. But last year I did compete in Miss International. I represented Taiwan at Miss International 2024 in Japan. I got the highest ranking for Taiwan's history at Miss International. I got top 13. Um, and I'm super grateful and super happy and proud of that.
SPEAKER_01That's awesome.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. So honestly, like for the past eight years, I've definitely through pageantry, I've grown so much. Like I'm incredibly grateful for my experience because not only am I able to express myself, like I feel like that that's something that I really struggled with, and still, you know, trying to improve on that aspect. But I've come a long way in terms of be me being able to express myself and my, you know, my thoughts and being able to speak somewhat eloquently and um being able to have open discussions with people. And so I'm very appreciative of those experiences.
SPEAKER_01Well said. And I just want to say again, congratulations on what uh what on this accomplishment. I mean, for you to represent Taiwan, particularly as Taiwan is a place where they they do want to be represented on the world stage as much as possible, given the the fact that in this world we we're living in nowadays, you know, with the geopolitics and whatnot, you know, there's obviously that need for Taiwan to have a strong voice. So I think for Taiwan to have the voice that it has with you, I think it's I think it's terrific. And yeah, what you demonstrate there again that willingness to be a better person, too. Like you've used it as a ladder to get to a higher place. That famous poem, you know, because it's not Y Tan, though, like the last one. Uh I won't I mean it's such a great poem. I can't translate it perfectly, but it's that whole thing of working hard to get to that next level, that higher level so you can see farther. Your family has instituted this, I'm sure, very well within you. And it's it's the value of education. Education is one of the pillars of Washington's farewell address that we talk about. And of course, you know, with George Washington and Taiwan, not a whole ton of uh similarities here. Uh well, for a variety of reasons. But one of the things that I think I find interesting about your career, Oceana, is the fact that you've not only been through different literally different education systems in Taiwan and North America, but that you you still live it, you still live out the mission of education and your tutoring and your your platform with with Miss Taiwan as well. You know, I mean there's so many different elements here. So can you talk a bit more about your platform? Uh my understanding is that you you emphasize a lot on sustainable development, but also uh the importance of education.
SPEAKER_00When I came to Taiwan, that's when I started to focus a lot more on my education. And then not only that, it also gave me the idea that like learning is a skill that I can constantly use, even some of the things that you wouldn't really think about. I mean, considering that we go through life once, or like the like this life is the first time I'm living it, right? And so I am just learning everything technically. Like, there's like even when it comes to okay, how to maintain friendships or how to maintain relationships or how to treat your parents, how to raise your kids, how to have a good spouse, like everything is technically the process of learning. And so, in a way, like I view my time in school and education as not only to have you know the knowledge that you learn in school, but also to train yourself and have a good learning skill that you will use for the rest of your life. I think that's something that is quite important in education systems and is also something that I feel like students should understand. Because I know that a lot of students are always like, why do I need to know all this stuff? Why do I need to learn calculus? Why do I need to learn um the mitochondria as the powerhouse of the sun? Right. Like, but I mean, to me, what I have gathered after my educational experience is that learning itself is a skill. Going back to my platform with Miss International. So, like you said, my platform is on education and equality in education to provide resources to students that don't necessarily have the same resources as most people. I am extremely grateful and fortunate that you know my parents are both are both really serious about my education and they have given me a lot of opportunities and a lot of resources, both financially and emotionally and mentally. I'm very extremely grateful for that, but I also recognize the fact that a lot of students don't have that same opportunity, both in developed countries like the States and Canada or in Taiwan, but also in especially in developing countries, right? So that was my platform for Miss International. And I have worked with a couple foundations where they provide resources to students that need extra resources for their education. In a way, I think the reason why I have focused on that is because my mom often shares her backstory on her educational journey. Because, you know, my mom was born in Taijiang, um, again, which is a small city. And especially back then when she was growing up, it was basically, I mean, she has kind of explained to me, it was basically more or less just fields, right? It wasn't in any way the developed city it is now. It was just rice fields. You know, she really had to fight for her educ for her education. She also wasn't in any way supported much because, you know, back in when she was growing up, women weren't really encouraged to attain higher education either. So she really had to fight through the process. And she, after achieving everything she has achieved, she has really taught me that education has changed her life in so many aspects and has given her so much opportunity, which in turn has given me the opportunity that I have had. So I definitely recognize the fact that education can really change someone's life. So I still till this day like really hold dear um the importance of education. That's kind of why I went into tutoring as kind of my my part-time job as well. Like I want to provide, like I want to inspire students and make sure that they actually enjoy the process of learning instead of just being feeling that like they're forced through it. So that's also why I have that part-time job and why eventually I would also want to provide that educational opportunities for my future kids as well.
SPEAKER_01I I really love what you said there, Oceana, about the value of education, because we oftentimes I think, and a lot of times maybe erroneously, we think of education as either luxury good or it's uh you know, or you know, like something that can be basically disposable, you know, like that sort of thing. Um or that you know education is a is a kind of forced thing, but then when you step back a bit, right, and then you talked about your mom, you talk about your grandmother, your how your family values education, how how a lot of Taiwanese people view education. I think there's that's something we can also learn to appreciate here in America as well. You know, there there's there's a lot of, of course, as you brought up, there's a lot of challenges, whether it's in developed or developing countries. But when we have those personal experiences, we realize that education is a lifelong journey too. So it's not just the fact that we're putting someone in school, but that that person has the tools and whatnot and the the community and the the the motivation to learn for a lifetime. You know, it's I I love that quote from Chinese culture, which means you live till you age, yeah, you learn till you age. And uh well gosh, that's just so true. I mean, I mean we can go on all day about Chinese idioms, right? I mean, that's probably one of the coolest things about Chinese is are the idioms that describe the way we can think about life. We think about um values too, because that's such a central part of Chinese culture. Uh yeah, absolutely. Your experience living in Taiwan and North America and just thinking big picture here. That's something that very, very few people in the world could even say, you know, can even say that they lived in those kinds of experiences. Why do you think Taiwan matters to America and the world based on your experiences? And what sort of message would you have for people who are already living in different cultures or people who aren't interested in traveling or living so living internationally, uh at least for a short period of time?
SPEAKER_00A lot of people, especially recent, after recent events, people are more aware of um Taiwan's economic influence on the world in terms of um we are the largest semiconductor manufacturers, and we also have a lot of import and export. Like we are one of the bigger ports as well in Asia. We do a lot of shipping, but that's just the economic parts, right? I think also culturally speaking, uh back during like my mom's generation, so like the baby boomer generation, there were a lot of immigrants that were going to all parts of the world, but a lot to the US and Canada, so North America. There's actually a lot of Taiwanese people that are not in Taiwan. There's a lot of Taiwanese immigrants that are living in other countries, and in many ways, they have, you know, not only created their own community um within those um other countries, but also influenced the culture there in many ways as well, right? And I I remember there were several articles um last year that said, you know, in the states, Taiwanese immigrants are one of the most well-adapted immigrants in the states. And I can understand why, because in many ways, I do think that Taiwanese culture is very heavy on perseverance and being able to adapt to many situations. Just simply because of our history, uh, we had to go through a lot of adaptations. We have to go, we had to go through a lot of changes throughout our history, like our history coming from mainland China, or you know, being being controlled by the Japanese Empire at some point. Like we we we went through a lot. We uh um hold strong to our values in adaptation, perseverance, etc. And so I think in many ways that has also been brought to other countries, as we had a lot of immigrants throughout the years, and so I think that's something that um Americans can, if they have the opportunity to learn from their Taiwanese American peers and kind of pick up on that, you know, and also learn from that as well, like their values and and perseverance and being able to adapt to all situations. I think that that's something that's very important, and Americans can definitely learn from each other for for that.
SPEAKER_01100%. I Really believe that Taiwan has become one of the most pro-American places I can think of. Of course, with any foreign country, there's always going to be some sort of disagreements on with the United States on certain things, right? Or you know, everyone everyone's got attitudes on the United States in some way. But the kind of bond that I've seen between Taiwan and America is truly remarkable. And I hope it gets stronger, right? I mean, it's not just the geopolitics of things, but it's the I think culturally speaking, there's harmony between Taiwan and America. Of course, the they're always gonna be distinctly very different, uh, and in many, many different ways. But I think that ability to have that harmony, or George Washington talks about a lot about finding those different ways of observing good faith towards other nations. And I think what you described there to better understand Taiwan, better understand fellow Americans too, fellow Americans of Taiwanese descent. Uh that that I think is a very, very important message to have. Some weird things I uh you'd maybe noticed about living in Taiwan and the ISA. I mean, I've got a few in my mind, but I I thought I'd give you an opportunity to maybe share some some interesting things, awkward experiences or weird experiences that maybe maybe you like to share to our audience.
SPEAKER_00We kind of mentioned some aspects of this, but you know, and the American culture is kind of everywhere in terms of in like media. I think in many ways, other cultures, uh other countries like like Taiwan, they kind of develop this idea of what they think American culture is or what they think America is like. And you know, sometimes they would they would ask me, like, and I know that they do this or Americans do that, right? Or they kind of misunderstand the fact that you know America's so incredibly diverse that okay, maybe there's like a some people do that, but most people don't, right? So there's a lot of misunderstanding, um, but in a way, I think it's cute. Like I I just tell them, hey, you know, this is actually what America's like. So I think it's endearing. I think that it's great that they are like they they have an interest for it and they're that they're willing to learn more about it. I think that you know, coming to Taiwan, that's something that I found quite interesting. Now, in terms of Taiwanese culture, that I think maybe to Americans might be a bit different, is first of all, Taiwan is extremely convenient, so convenient to the fact that like we literally have food everywhere. We have food stalls everywhere, like on all streets. It's very common. Um, we have night markets, so several streets are basically blocked up and just covered in food stalls, right? So, I mean, food is very into Taiwanese culture. Taiwanese people love eating and they're very serious about their food. That's something that's super cute about Taiwan is that like we treat food so seriously, and there's food literally everywhere. And that's something that you can't really have in the States. Like, uh, you know, you need you need dinner, what sucks. You have to drive like 10-15 minutes at least, right?
SPEAKER_01So oh I I completely agree. I mean, the the the convenience element, right? I mean, this the there's so many different elements, right? Everything from the mopeds to 7-Elevens. I mean, by the way, for all Americans out there, our 7-Elevens are terrible compared to 7-Elevens in Taiwan. I mean, I I can't think of uh of a store that's better than a 7-Eleven or a Family Mart or you know something similar in Taiwan. I mean, it true, and again, built on this efficiency, right? This idea of being able to do all these things, and you know, as for a small island, right? It's also kind of nice to feel like you can do a lot too, right, with with all these different places. Because when I go to Taiwan, right, and and people of course know I'm American. I mean, they know that the mods are Taiwan and all. But it every time I go there, right, there's always like this snack or something. And the funny thing is, when I asked people in Taiwan, I said, well, what is the like what is the snack, right? Like what I'm just I just want to know what it is. They'll never tell you what it is, they'll just say the name. And it's like, okay, I I know what it is, but I just want to know what's inside this thing. Or like they'll name a fruit or something. It's like, oh, you can only find in Taiwan. It's like, great, what is it?
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, well, you know, I think I think it's the same idea of like, let's say in the States or or most western countries, like, if you see a lasagna, like, and you ask, okay, what is this? They would say, Yeah, it's a lasagna. Like, you don't really need to explain, oh, you know, it's like levels, layers of pasta sheets that are, you know, and there's cheese in between layers. Like, I think, because in in Western culture, like, you know, we we know what a lasagna is. So, like, you don't need to explain it, but for for Taiwan, it's like, yeah, like it's just it's just a ton. I don't know what to say about it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and and the sophistication of Chinese cuisine, too, is also kind of maybe the other thing, too, because there's a lot of stuff in Western cuisine, is is I would say pretty simple, right? Like lasagna. I think is that's a good example. But there's there's definitely like the uh the more exotic things, like zonza, right? It's like, oh, sticky rice with a leaf around it. So if you tell them Mario, it's like, oh, what is that?
SPEAKER_00True. Actually, that made me think of so my personal favorite is lu we. And so every time everyone asked me, yeah, like what's your favorite food? I would always say lu we. And so people who aren't familiar with it, they would ask me, like, oh, what is lu we? And honestly, I struggle so much to explain it because like I just it's so difficult to explain. Like, it's technically anything, like you could eat anything, but but braised. Like the the the whole idea of lu we is that you could grab literally anything, like it could be noodles, it could be more exotic stuff like chicken feet, which I personally don't eat, or like intestines, or tofu, or veggies, you could grab anything and then braise it in a specific like soy-based sauce, and that's lue, right? So, like I find it so difficult to explain. And even if I explain it like that, like like honestly, I think I did a pretty good job there, but people would still be so confused. They're like, What do you mean? Like, you're just like eating anything but braised, and that's lue. Like, what why is it so special?
SPEAKER_01It's it's I think it's the the reason why is because it's it's like it's too good to be true, you know, kind of like that, you know. And it could because at least from what I'm getting from the definition, it sounds like it's a very freedom-oriented food, you know, like you can choose whatever you want. It's it sounds so libertarian.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Exactly, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, oh Sean, obviously, this episode is gonna be released the before the weekend of the Fourth of July, and we we were just talking about freedom-loving food. So what what can you just share? Uh, particularly since I'm sure you've you were in America, you know, for uh at least a few Fourth of Julys. Uh what what sort of things would you say about the about the holiday and kind of what what do you think it it represents best of uh for you and and for our nation?
SPEAKER_00Honestly, because I have such you know an international upbringing, a lot of people would think that, okay, maybe you are less in touch with maybe uh some parts of your culture, right? So maybe you're less in touch with the Taiwanese culture, or something sometimes you're less in touch with the American culture. And I would say that, you know, I've I am very appreciative of my international background, but also I am very appreciative of each and every country that I have ever lived in. I mean, I've lived in three countries, but the United States will always hold like a very, very special place in my heart simply because I was born there and I spent the first decade of my life there. I will always forever, you know, be very grateful for the time that I spent in the United States. And often I always think about this like, would I return to the States for you know, eventually when I want to raise kids or when I want to retire? And absolutely, like I still would love to return there and live there for a while. So, in terms of Fourth of July, I think what it is is to me at least, it's a reminder of what America as a country has given me in terms of opportunity or sense of identity. It's just a reminder for what my ancestors in the States have fought for and what we continuously fight for, and the cultural aspects that have influenced not only me, but in some ways the rest of the world as well. Yeah, it stands as a reminder for me of the patriotism that even though I don't live there, I still have in my heart. I really do hope that in some ways, like what I've said today can kind of open eyes to some fellow Americans that have different experiences than me. Because I think the beauty of the United States is that you know, Americans, we are united, but we are also we also have such different backgrounds. That's why like communication and being able to like have these podcasts, right, and discuss these different backgrounds is so important because then we can kind of recognize the beauty of our own history and being able to be appreciative of our experiences as Americans and realize that there are certain things that maybe as an American that has lived in different countries and and has that international view, still being able to appreciate my American side and my American upbringing, like Americans that have maybe lived their whole life in the States, sometimes, you know, there are there are times where you want to complain about something or you want to, you know, think that oh, the United States, like why why are we doing this? Like, there are so many things that we can improve on, which is absolutely true. Like there are always things that we can improve on, but still remain grateful. You know, there are things that I have experienced in different countries, not to say that it's bad, but that I can recognize that oh, the United States does a good job in this aspect. Fourth of July is a good opportunity for us to just reflect on those things and be grateful for them.
SPEAKER_01Wonderfully said. It seems like there's still some Yankee within you, Oceana.
SPEAKER_00Of course.
SPEAKER_01That's amazing. Uh I I think the what you described there, I mean, e purbus unum out of many one. And there's a lot of meaning to it, and I think you bring about that spirit, you know, you you bring about that character and that that understanding of the importance of America and what it what it represents. So thank you for that. Our conversation today was I think so solid. I think we've already made those connections with education. You talk about patriotism, so I think we've really have added these different elements to what we would talk about a lot on this podcast about Washington's farewell address. And uh Oshan, I'd like to now give you an opportunity before we wrap up to give you an opportunity to share a bit about how people can follow what what you're up to. And uh, because I imagine that you're you're doing some amazing things as you're you're saying you're in grad school and uh you're at one of the top universities in Taiwan and you're living the Taipei life. And uh just an opportunity for you to share a little bit about what what people can do to follow what you're doing in the future.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Um, well, I mean, the easiest way to kind of keep up with me would be Instagram. It's at Oceana. So my first name, Oceana O-C-E-A-N-A, and then X H. Actually, X H is the pinging for Xiaohai. That's that's why it's X H, um, which is my Chinese name. So Oceana XH, I'm on Instagram. And honestly, my Instagram is kind of more or less my LinkedIn um because of the work that I do. It's more in the entertainment industry. So um, yeah. So if you want to keep up with any of like just in general, my life or my work, I will be on Instagram. You can reach out to like if anyone's interested and wants to learn more about Taiwanese culture or my you know multicultural upbringing or anything, you can reach out to my Instagram. I try to respond to people, just say that you heard me from this podcast, and and um I will be in a movie this year. Well, actually, the movie comes out next year, but I will be filming a movie this year in September. Um, it is a very like local Taiwanese movie, so it's not like super international, it won't be in American theaters, but if you want to watch it, you can come to Taiwan to watch it. Um, and also if anyone is like and they want recommendations on where to go and what to see, you could also reach out, like try reaching out to me on my Instagram. And I I typically do try to respond and and give some pointers and and uh recommendations. So yeah.
SPEAKER_01So there you have it. Miss Taiwan Rational is also your tour guy, your Rue expert, and uh a lot of different different roles. Uh that's exciting. I I'd love to love to check out the your scenes in that movie. Um and perhaps my time perhaps my Taiwanese and Chinese could improve also if I were to watch this. Well, Ocean, before we sign off, I I'd just like to say once again, thank you for being on the podcast. I really enjoyed talking with you today. And you know, as we kind of discussed before we started recording, uh, I really think that you bring about a great example for Taiwan and America. And the fact that you represented Taiwan literally on the world stage uh in this international competition. The fact that you value education, you realize what brings Americans together, what brings Taiwanese people together, what brings Taiwanese and Americans together. I think those are virtues that we can learn from. And what you have done to illuminate through your experiences and the kinds of things that you've seen and experienced yourself, not everything was easy, but you were able to make it through. And the the the message that you brought up regarding Fourth of July, I think is spectacular. And we've I don't think we should ever forget our our personal identity and our roots and and where we come from as a nation here in America. So uh Oceana, I thank you so much for for coming on, and I really appreciate what you shared with our audience today.
SPEAKER_00Oh, well, uh first of all, thank you for your kind words and thank you for having me. Like I I love doing these podcasts because, in a way, it's not only just me, you know, sharing my ideas to other people, but it's also very introspective. Like I'm able to um search within myself when I'm answering these questions and you know, kind of reflect on my own experience and what what I hold um true to myself. So I I really appreciate being on this podcast and I really enjoyed our conversation.
SPEAKER_01Thank you all so much for listening to this episode. I hope you enjoyed it. Make sure to check out the links down in the show notes below. Have a great rest of your day and rest of your week. And remember, a day in America has always been. We are with our friends and fellows.
