#164: Inaugural F&FC Washington's Birthday Interview - Designing the Public Service Path of the Bush School feat. Dr. Charles Hermann

Almost 30 years ago, Texas A&M University's Bush School of Government and Public Service was dedicated to continue the legacy of the late President George H.W. Bush. For this year's inaugural F&FC Presidents' Day Interview, founding Director of the Bush School Dr. Charles Hermann shares some insight and principles of the institution and its role in shaping public service in America.

Check out Dr. Hermann's books below!
When Things Go Wrong: Foreign Policy Decision Making under Adverse Feedback
Called to Serve: The Bush School of Government and Public Service

Transcript

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SPEAKER_00 0:00

President Bush came to me and said, Chuck, you know, the Bush Library is going to be dedicated this fall. And I think it would be a mistake for the Bush school to be dedicated at the same time. I think you should have a separate dedication for the school so it doesn't get lost. And Barbara and I will come to that dedication.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

Patriotism, faith, national unity, education, fiscal responsibility, stability, the values that define America. Fascinating stories and talks from America-loving patriots dedicated to preserving freedom, opportunity, and justice. Welcome to the Friends and Fellow Citizens Podcast. Thank you all so much for joining me for this interview episode. Today I'm kickstarting an annual tradition for President's Day. Since our podcast is uh part of a namestake for George Washington, our first president, I think it would be fitting to add an additional episode for President's Day to reflect on George Washington and to, of course, bring new content for all of you. Before we get to our main content, firstly, a gigantic, enormous shout out to our dedicated Patreon supporters. They really help us keep this show running. If you enjoy our content and would like additional special benefits such as bonus content and even your own podcast mug, check out our Patreon page in the show notes below. If you haven't already, make sure to hit that subscribe button or sign up for our email list at our website at GeorgeWashington Institute.org. Without further ado, let's kick off the first Friends and Fellow Assistants President's Day interview episode. Today's guest is Dr. Charles Herman. Dr. Charles Herman is a senior professor in the Brett Scowcroft Air Emoritus. He came to Texas AM University in 1995 to organize the Bush School of Government and Public Service and served as its founding director. Dr. Herman served as Associate Dean for Academic Programs and then as the designer and first director of the Bush School's Master's Program in International Affairs. With Tally D. Wade, he has recently co-authored a book on the first 20 years of the Bush School, Call to Serve, the Bush School of Government and Public Service. He has been active in this profession and has also volunteered in the local community, including on the board of Project Unity, a nonprofit organization assisting families and children. Hope you enjoy this discussion with Chuck Herman about an institution that I am proud to be a part of. All right, everyone. Chuck, it is a pleasure to have you on the podcast today.

SPEAKER_00 3:28

Great to be with you.

SPEAKER_01 3:30

Well, first of all, uh thank you for all your years of service for the Butch School. It means a lot for you to be on the show. And uh I'd like to share with you and to anyone who is new to the podcast. Uh, we started this podcast with basically myself, and then my first three guests were all Butch School alumni. And so this show really means a lot to me and to be that bridge between my time at AM and where I am today. I did a count, and we've had uh 18 AM people on the program as guests, which is phenomenal. And each and every single one of them brings something unique to uh not only to the show, but also brings about their unique experiences that I think they were shaped by their AM experiences and Aggie spirits. And uh, and so in including yourself, obviously, with this count. You obviously have again a very distinguished career, and there's so many ways we can go about it, but I'd like to give you an opportunity just to share a little bit about yourself.

SPEAKER_00 4:36

I uh started teaching at uh in the political science department at Princeton University and uh doing a little next door at what was then the Woodrow Wilson School. It's now just the School of Public Affairs at Princeton. Um then I had the opportunity to uh have a council on foreign relations uh fellowship that took me to Washington, D.C. and spent um uh a little bit more than a year working on the National Security Council staff as a very junior person for uh Dr. Henry Kissinger. Um and uh that was uh extraordinarily interesting and instructive experience for me. And uh after that I went to Ohio State University and became the director of a national security center as well as a member of the political science department, and uh did that for a number of years, and it was uh I was there uh when uh the invitation uh was came to me to uh see if I was interested in trying to start a new school of public and international affairs at Texas AM.

SPEAKER_01 6:03

Well, it worked out for you perfectly, didn't it? Just like it was planned. Well, uh what a great story, Chuck. And uh I'd like to start off with your time uh with the fellowship because this is such an interesting area of American foreign policy, of course, as you've probably experienced. Uh, what can you share about what the fellowship was like, you know, your experiences there, what you learned, uh, and how the dynamics of the changing world affected your fellowship and the work that you were eventually called to do.

SPEAKER_00 6:42

These were difficult times uh in uh uh foreign policy for the United States for the Vietnam War going on. Um I uh was obviously not involved in any kind of way in the process of decision making with regards to that critical area, um, but it affected everything else. So I had uh did have some responsibility for uh policy making uh and activity with regards to sub-Saharan Africa. And um even there you could see uh the impact uh of course of of uh the Vietnam War uh in many ways, uh not only in terms of how other nations reacted to us, uh but um what what we were choosing to do or not to do uh in that region of the world because we had uh these uh profound commitments in Southeast Asia. Um so in my experience um the impact of the war was ricocheting uh and affecting uh dimensions of uh foreign policy that on the face of it you wouldn't have thought that would be significantly affected by what was going on in Vietnam, but it was. And and so the big takeaway then for me was that um uh while we can think of um dividing uh public policy into regions or sections or issues, there's a lot a of impact and uh movement back and forth and interacting between these things, even when they seem uh to be uh quite different issues. Um I have written not too long ago, uh just I can't show it to you, but it's uh a book on when things go wrong is the title of the book. Um and every government discovers there are times when things do go wrong. And so how uh where they had and had initiated a strategy of policy and it wasn't working the way they thought it was gonna work, what do you do? What do you do there? Do you double down and uh uh do you change course? Uh and and what are the what are the conditions that you want to think about those kind of options in responding to the adversity that you encounter? Labor. So that's true, I think, today, uh uh in important kinds of ways.

SPEAKER_01 9:57

And Chuck, I'd like to just touch upon a little bit more on uh that era of the Vietnam War era. Um obviously it was such a divisive time, you know, American policy. We always like to talk about how divisive politics are now, but as you've probably experienced yourself, you know, Americans were divided so so much on that war. What did that experience of the political environment uh teach you about the nature of American foreign policy and uh and how to best navigate when people are divided on these critical issues?

SPEAKER_00 10:37

Well, uh in my own personal experience, I thought it was very important to allow others to express themselves uh uh and uh to allow them to um articulate what they what their concerns were, why they thought they were right, and then to be able to come back and and be able to give some brief summary. Now, do I understand you what you said is this? Uh uh and before I could begin to suggest the issues that were critically important to me, uh it was important for them to understand that I was hearing them. In the issues I was dealing with with in Nigeria or South Africa or something like that. Um, they wanted to tell me what was wrong with American foreign policy in Vietnam and rather than say, no, no, no, that's not why we're here today. It was important to say, well, tell me more about why you think that. And uh see that I understand. Let me see if I understand what you're saying. Umly after that kind of report had been established was it possible. Well, let me let's not let's talk about on something else that may or may not be as connected to what you suggested, but seems to me important for your well-being as well as that of the United States.

SPEAKER_01 12:15

Um so important. And uh I imagine that's maybe a lot of people brought up like, oh, how's the weather today at that time, sometimes though to change the course of the conversation there? To what extent have you seen presidents acknowledge that they've they did not challenge their premises, or do uh do they try to find some other reason to explain me why something went wrong? Uh is there a pattern there, or what what can you just share about presidents and and their premises on foreign policy?

SPEAKER_00 12:50

Well, I I don't there are a number of factors that would enter into how they how they respond. The critical thing is, of course, is the personality of the of the president and their moment of um problems thinking about and addressing problems, whether or not they include advisors that have um an array of perspectives. Um when um Carter uh was uh considering what to do to rescue the host American hostages in Tehran, um the Secretary of State strongly opposed uh uh the president uh uh and said this this arrangement for rescuing our uh hostages will not work, and let me tell you the reasons why. But President Carter rejected that, of course, um and went ahead. But the important thing, at least a consideration, is there were alternatives introduced into the decision-making process uh that Carter considered. Um other presidents might have uh reacted differently to it which were when they heard a strong criticism from such an influential um member of their inner circle. But um in that case, President Carter didn't. Although Carter heard the critique um and chose not to follow it, probably on uh as the Vietnam War became more intense, Lyndon Johnson didn't even hear, didn't receive from his group of course advisors uh an array of options of what we should do now since what we seem to be doing doesn't seem to be working.

SPEAKER_01 15:09

Ver very interesting. I mean, uh it's it's always a fascination, I think, for the American people to realize what what what are the conversations like in the Oval Office or in the situation room. And I imagine that probably the most dynamic decisions are the ones that include all those different options because it represents, I think, what the president has to face all the time, making tough decisions, never never being able to make a decision that's going to satisfy everybody. I mean, when we look at, for example, how presidents are elected, I mean, of course, beyond the Electoral College, I mean even just looking at the popular vote, the fact that easily at least 40 nowadays, 40 to maybe 45 percent of the American people will never vote for this candidate or that candidate. I mean, I I don't I don't think we maybe appreciate enough of how difficult it is to make decisions knowing that half of the country is probably not going to approve of what your cabinet members do. But nonetheless, I think it elevates maybe the the position of president uh to some degree. I'd like to now get to the crux of our conversation, Chuck. And this is uh the big reason why I wanted to have you on the podcast is uh this week we are celebrating President's Day. And as I've told you before recording, I like to have a special episode, an additional interview episode for President's Day. So normally we have our interview and sole episodes on the first and second Mondays respectively of each month. But for February, I think it's fitting to have an additional episode to discuss the presidency. And because uh our name of the podcast, the Friends and Fellow Citizens, of course, named after the first four words of George Washington's farewell address. And so, Chuck, today we'll we're discussing uh the late president George H. W. Bush, which uh I'll summarize by saying that I am so blessed to not only be a Bush school alumni, but to have the opportunity to pay my respects to the president when he passed away in in the uh November 2018. And then in the following month, uh I saw one of the most beautiful ceremonies for a former president when the president's casket arrived by train and was taken on the hearst, and then for a private ceremony. You are such a titan for the Bush School for AM. And so I like to start from the beginning here of how you first became part of this idea and the initial planning for starting the Bush School.

SPEAKER_00 17:58

The work had already begun. Uh after uh President Bush uh left the office uh of president, um he had to make the decision about what to do on his presidential library. Actually, that had actually started before he before he left office. Uh uh and he um after a while said, I want to have my library in Texas. So then there were several different proposals from different uh universities and so on to put to bid for the library. But uh Texas AM did something I think rather distinctive, and they said, Mr. President, if you put your library uh on our campus, we will build and establish a school of public and international affairs and co-locate it right next to your library on our campus. Um and so there would be a library and a school of public affairs uh if you came, if you chose our university. And that in retrospect really appealed to the president Bush. And so that was the basis for uh he he made his choice. It's interesting to look at the actual proposal of the university submitted to him. There's uh about 20 pages describing how they would do the presidential library, and then another 25 pages about the School of Public Affairs they'd create next door. Um that uh kind of triggered uh the establishment of uh uh the school within the library, and this operation taking place at the same time.

SPEAKER_01 20:05

Now, and Chuck, you had an opportunity to to get to know the Bushes. Uh, what can you share about your interactions with the Bush family and what you learned from these people who have dedicated all those years of public service and wanted to build an institution next to the presidential library to continue that legacy of service for many generations until now and well into the future.

SPEAKER_00 20:38

Well, I think you you have said the secret word, uh, and that uh they remain very interested in promoting public service. Uh and they became really interested in um young adults who were entertaining that idea. So uh the although there we've talked about two buildings being in there, there's the library and uh uh the Bush School. There was a is a third building in that complex, and that's um a uh uh building that houses the Bush uh administration, uh the Bush uh Public Service Administration. On its second floor, it had an apartment for President Mrs. Bush. And uh although they lived in Houston uh the after the presidency, they often spent time in college station in their apartment uh next to the school in the library, and um President Bush liked, among other things, to pitch horseshoes. I think he may be one of the few presidents that created a horseshoe pit of the White House. Um, but of course, so we had to have a horseshoe pit uh by the Bush school. And uh the students discovered if they went out, if the bushes were in town, and if they they would go out and kind of clang these shoes together, bang, bang, bang. President Bush would often come out and join them in pitching horseshoe. Um but it wasn't just in that kind of casual way. He often said, give me the names of some students I can take to lunch. Or um um what about uh how about uh uh I have so and so coming as a visitor. What about uh bringing him into a classroom? I mean, President Bush's visitors were something uh kind of mind-blowing. So, for example, how about Gorbachev and President Bush coming to a class and sitting down with about 20 graduate students for an hour? Um that was just amazing. Uh and so much part of his commitment to promoting public interesting, interesting young people and getting involved with public service, meeting people from around the world and who were engaged in that kind of career uh and as exemplars uh for what they uh uh might be thinking about doing. And I might add just as a footnote on that point, one of the distinctive things about the Bush School um is the percentage of its graduates that go into some form of public service or nonprofit compared to the other leading uh schools of public and international affairs. Um so it is kind of remarkable that uh that commitment, that idea, that direction that the president really wanted to emphasize has been captured and continues to be characterized uh in the school today.

SPEAKER_01 24:40

Uh Chuck, I'd like to and kind of connect Bush with uh President's Day, because uh President's Day is seen as of course as a holiday, which it is, but uh I'm curious to learn more about how you view President's Day, particularly when you've you've had all these experiences with the Bushes, what President's Day means and uh why you think President's Day is important for America.

SPEAKER_00 25:09

It is um important to recognize that uh the chief executive of the United States uh is an elected position. Uh and so um when we think about uh what has happened in other parts of the world uh uh and where there's such severe struggles, um in the United States, it is a result of what the people of the country uh believe are the care are the attributes of an individual who should provide the leadership in the executive branch of this government. And it it makes uh uh uh a difference. Um, I think that um uh there is a realization too that uh the person is in the this position of immense power for a finite period of time. But there are repeatedly at regular intervals elections. And uh a president can run for re-election once uh on certain terms, uh uh, but that's the limit now. The connection in such a huge uh country, both geographically and uh in terms of diversity in many different kinds of ways, to have the link in representative government and and uh the leadership seems to be uh a critical feature. And uh when we look at uh where some of the significant challenges in the past uh our country has faced and uh where it's uh very likely to be facing them in the future, um thinking about the Cold War with the Soviet Union and now facing um increasingly uh challenges from China. Um the contrast between the leader the way the leadership of this country is selected and affirmed, uh with the way it was in the Soviet Union or the way it is in uh Russia or China at the present time. That's just an exemplary of I think the importance of what the presidency of the United States means.

SPEAKER_01 27:57

A lot of people, for various different reasons across the political spectrum, are always I think are desperately looking for authenticity and for institutions that uh that can provide strong visions and a light ahead when people feel like maybe government is not serving them uh to some degree? What sort of role does the butch school have in 2024 and 2025, since we're at least until 2025, or what sort of role does the butch school have to uh offer not just the graduates or students of the Butch School, but also the American people and what and what the school can do to uh cement the leadership and uh uh and traits of President Bush in this day and age.

SPEAKER_00 28:55

Yeah, yeah. I think it's uh interesting to um reflect for a moment about the um uh recent leadership of uh the Bush School. Um our immediate uh previous uh uh dean, uh Mark Welch, uh who's now president of the university, um spent uh his career in the Air Force before um uh coming retiring and coming into Texas AM uh uh uh uh initially at the Bush School. Our current dean John Sherman is uh another example, somebody who uh went into public service themselves. Uh but Bush School's I think law needs to be to exemplify the importance of public service. And um and being in public service means being responsible to the electorate, to the people that who are elected and trying to find ways to serve them. I think we have uh entered an age in which electronics uh and the way we get information um increases the challenge in the sense that um it's easier to tone in only on information and sources of information that reaffirm what your initial prejudices are, uh initial I don't say prejudice, initial predispositions are. Um you think of new uh national news broadcasts, uh uh the days of a Walter Cronkite, um where he's desperately trying to be balanced, and when he finally feels he must speak out against the Vietnam War, he makes this big point. Ladies and gentlemen, I'm taking a moment to step aside and express my personal views, but I want to emphasize this does not represent anything but me speaking as an individual. It does not are contrast to the program as we uh news that we normally brought up. Anyway, so we must find ways uh to make it comfortable for uh more of us as American citizens to hear different points of view uh and not become dependent on a single set of sources that seems to only affirm what we already thought we believed. Um that's a big challenge. I think it's one that the Bush law itself needs to think about how it can help address. Um but with uh the uh way uh internet information and sources are available to us, uh it's uh uh certainly different from what earlier generations in our country face is a way they maintain information about the world beyond themselves in the public sector.

SPEAKER_01 32:58

Amen to that. It is also beneficial for the Bush School to offer these credentials in international affairs. It that does not mean that someone who gets a degree of course is always right, but it does mean that someone has demonstrated to the school and to the professors, who by the way, uh I know you're you're in uh from academia, I'm also in academia right now, but we also have a lot of practitioners too. And that mix of practitioners and academics creates an environment where people can look at different sources of information, who can think not just unilaterally or even bilaterally, but maybe think in 4D or 5D dimensions or like thinking thinking outside the box in that way. And uh, I I just wanna re reaffirm what you said there, Chuck, about the what I gained from that school, which I I I can never trade for anything else, and I wouldn't want to trade it for anything else because it's really the people like yourself and many others uh who've served for the school that have made it what it is now. Before we get to our reflection phase here, I'd like to give you an opportunity to provide a preview of your book called Call to Serve, the Bush School of Government Public Service, which I'm sure encapsulates a lot of findings, but also of your experiences and the the history and the workings of the Busch School. So, what what can you share about a preview of that book and what I guess what you would like readers to gain out of reading that work?

SPEAKER_00 34:41

Well, the distinctive characteristics of the Bush School is the commitment of the faculty and staff, and indeed then the students, to the idea of finding ways to do public search. The last part of the book is uh the short biographies are number of the number of graduates um uh what they're doing now. Um and uh it exemplifies this idea of all the different ways, uh, whether you are a city manager or uh doing something in the CIA um or um uh being involved in some kind of local community action group, all these things represent uh the dimensions of public service, which I think we need to continue to emphasize as a fundamental dimension of making democracies work, including ours.

SPEAKER_01 35:54

Very well said. And I think the bush school fits very well into that about keeping our republic and our democracy. And it's heartening to see that it's still happening, it's still going on today, it's still expanding. Uh the I went to the Butch School DC site a few months ago, and it's it's unbelievable. The the uh I mean the the real estate's not deep there. There's clearly a lot of resources into that uh that building, but to have that proximity to the White House when you're firing it square to see all these professionals come in to to bring some textbooks into DC, which I'm sure I'm sure we will uh we we will always appreciate a course. Uh every everywhere in the world needs a bit of text, including our nation's capital. Um I'm sure that our new dean is is gonna continue to carry the baton kind of like how uh when Dean Welsh was on the program this was about two years ago, and he he was kind enough to share about his experiences in the Air Force and to continue that service to the Bush School. I know that our new dean, Dean Sherman, will do a fantastic job. And I I look forward to meeting with him in person at some point on my my next visit. Uh, my hopefully uh very soon next visit back to Roger Land. Doc, I'd like to now ask to reflect a bit on uh George Watchman's farewell address. And as we outline all the time, the document really brings out the principles of patriotism, of faith, of national unity, of education, uh, physical responsibility and stability. And these four are still applicable and at times might feel scared, but then there are times when you find an oasis of these principles and make one makes one have a sense of optimism. I think the political is that oasis of those values. Uh Chuck, out of these principles, which one or which ones are do you think are most applicable or the ones that really stand out to you the most as we delve into a new presidential administration, a new era of American politics and of of uh of world events? Uh what stands out to you most out of these principles from George Washington's farewell address?

SPEAKER_00 38:24

The first thing to mention is it is a farewell address. Um uh was a farewell address. I mean, he made the conscious decision that um he would not seek another term. Uh uh um despite his very substantial popularity and um the belief that to distinguish ourselves from a dictatorship, we constantly have to have a dynamic presidency in which um a uh individual and uh that individual's uh set of college come in and give their very best and in the vision that they see as a way to move the country forward and deal with the problems that it faces. But there are they are finite in the time that they uh serve. That is such a fundamental distinction. And now the other political thing is that one needs to find ways to work with people with whom one does not agree. That is a challenge, I think, that uh will face um this president, come and coming president, as it has faced all presidents, despite the fact that the Congress is of the same party as the incoming president in both the House and the Senate, those are very slim. And they are individuals who are responsible for different parts of the election. So I'm confident that we'll see the need for dialogue and and compromise and debate as a fundamental ongoing characteristic of democracy, and it's one that that has to be a underpinning of what we mean by public service. Let me let me just tell you about the dedication of the Bush School. President Bush came to me and said, Chuck, you know, uh the Bush Library is going to be dedicated um this fall. And uh I think it would be a mistake for the Bush school to be dedicated at the same time. I think you should have a separate dedication for the school so it doesn't get lost. And Barbara and I will come to that dedication, and so we did. We we planned a separate uh day in October for the dedication of the Bush School. And not only uh the President and Mrs. Bush came, but so did the governor of Texas, happened to also have the same last name at the time. And um while people toured through the Bush School, uh the President Bush and Governor Bush uh went to a classroom and met with the first class of Bush School students and did a question and answer period for an hour with them. Uh, then we all celebrated because um that night at uh the university's major auditorium, Wal Lovett came and gave a concert to celebrate the opening of the Bush School. So you can see how each of these individuals was thinking about how to enhance the experience and the well-being of others. In this case, the group of initial bush school students, and what sacrifices they were prepared to make to make their lives and their experience at that moment in time special. The point of that story is that here is a former president of the United States, a governor of Texas, a pop music music star, each of them, each of them giving of themselves for some small group of individuals who are starting out in a pursuit of a career of public service. And they were willing to give up a big chunks of their time uh to make make it a symbol, what you're pursuing is important.

SPEAKER_01 43:06

It had had to be a Texas-sized celebration, didn't it? Very true, Chuck. Well, uh, I'd like to conclude our interview by saying thank you again for your decades of service for Text AM and for the Bush School. I remember going to the Bush School for the first time. My father and I were visiting the campus because my father's in Aggie as well. And he went to AM Galveston, uh, which was also a great school, too, and led by some fantastic people, including Colonel Fawcett, who was on the program a few months ago. We went to the campus and I felt a sense of calm, but also knowing that this whole venue, this whole space, this environment of the Bush Presidential Library Museum, and then the Bush School, and of course the Annenbrook Center. It is going to be a place of great significance for understanding of our country and for our policymaking as I felt back in 2017. I still feel it today in uh 2024, 2025. I know that so much of what the Bush School has become, what is and what will be was because of people like you. And you had such a huge role in laying out the vision. And you know, some and I was having a conversation with a friend of mine, and we were kind of floating this the theory that maybe a lot of what America is is because we were probably the luckiest country, we're the luckiest country ever that we had for at times, at various different times, the right people at the right place. And I feel the same way with with the Bush School. We had feel like we had the right people at the right place when it was started. And it wouldn't be the institution that it is now if it wasn't for I'd say the the luck or the fortune from Almighty God uh to have uh a place where people can learn and from where people can serve and serve others. And so that's why I'm really grateful for you to to have been on the program today to share a little bit about uh what it meant for you to be a part of that story, be part of that institution building. And I know that your voice and the voice of countless others uh back in the book school and to the book school alumni who are all over the world right now, what their purpose is and what their vision is for helping others and to make make our country safer, but also to to be part of a school that is special to me and it's special to you too. Thank you so much, Chuck. Thank you for being ready. And with that, thank you all so much for listening to this episode. I hope you enjoyed it. Make sure to check out the links down in the show notes below to see how you can join as a Patreon member or join our email list. Have a great rest of your day and rest of your week. And remember a day in America. It's always better. We are with our friends and fellows.