Friends & Fellow Citizens
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Friends & Fellow Citizens
#122: A Gathering of Free Minds for Festive Fun at FreedomFest feat. Valerie Durham
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Despite numerous political differences, most people can agree on one thing: everyone wants freedom! So where can people convene and socialize about ideas for liberty? A professional dancer and Executive Director of FreedomFest, Valerie Durham shares what makes FreedomFest a unique annual event, insight into how it is put together, and some of the successes and challenges of our current political environment.
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IMPORTANT NOTE/DISCLAIMER: All views expressed by the host are presented in his personal capacity and do not officially represent the views of any affiliated organizations. All views presented by guests are solely those of the interviewees themselves and may or may not represent the views of their affiliated organizations, the host, Friends & Fellow Citizens, and/or The George Washington Institute.
Patriotism, faith, national unity, education, physical responsibility, civility, the values that define America. Fascinating stories and talks from America-loving patriots dedicated to preserving freedom, opportunity, and justice. Welcome to the Friends and Fellow Citizens Podcast. Greetings, everyone, and welcome to the 122nd episode of Friends and Fellow Citizens. I'm your host, Sherman Talowski. Thank you all so much for joining me for this interview episode. We have another special guest about to join us. Before we get to our episode, as a quick reminder, make sure to subscribe to Friends and Fellow Citizens if you haven't already. If this is your first time listening, welcome to our program. Also, be sure to check out our Patreon opportunities. We want to once again thank, as always, our Patreon supporters for continuing to provide help for this program. I am just internally grateful every time we have a Friends and Fellow Citizens episode, so be sure to check out the Patreon link down in the show notes below. Today's guest is Valerie Durham. Valerie has served as the executive conference director for Freedom Fest since 2015, bringing together her background as a libertarian, marketing and project manager, and professional dance artist. Training as a dancer since the age of three in ballet, jazz, and modern, Valerie is one of a few master artists in the world who specializes in the art of Isidora Duncan, known as the mother of modern dance. Valerie has performed professionally in New York as well as around the United States and in Europe with Isidora Duncan repertory and her own original choreographies. She is the founder of the Isidora Duncan International Symposium and spearheaded the first digital archive of Isidora Duncan's life and legacy. With a Master of Fine Arts degree in dance and a bachelor's degree in public relations with an economics minor, Valerie has worked in marketing for Phil's Publishing Corporate and run her own business in marketing, multimedia, and project management, and has served as the chair of the Libertarian Party in Montgomery County, Maryland. I had the wonderful opportunity to attend and speak at Freedom Fest 2022 last year at the Mirage in Las Vegas. It was a wonderful event just having people from all over the country and all over the world to convene at this one location right in the heart of the Las Vegas Strip. And I am still very grateful to uh Valerie and the team at Freedom Fest for giving me the opportunity to speak at a panel discussion, uh discussing how young people can get involved in uh freedom loving activities, really. And what's so interesting about this conference, as you'll hear in this conversation, which is really the diversity of different voices that you have while at the same time having a theme of freedom. That kind of conversation, lively conversation based on this idea is what we really need more, and it'll be a wonderful opportunity to learn a bit more about what goes on behind the scenes of putting together such a major event. All right, everyone. Well, I am very excited to have Valerie Durham onto our program. Valerie, it's great to connect with you once again, and thank you so much for coming on our program this week.
SPEAKER_01Thanks so much, Sherman. It was so great to meet you last year at Freedom Fest and to get to know some of your work and passion. And uh really delighted to be here on your friends and fellow citizens podcast today.
SPEAKER_03Well, first of all, thank you so much for for the accepting the invite, but also obviously giving me the opportunity to speak at your Freedom Fest uh last year at the Mirage in Las Vegas, and I just had a wonderful time meeting all those people, including yourself. Uh, we actually met at that John Cleese event, so uh it's just it's always nice, nice when you have some Monty Python there. Um and buddy uh just classic, classic, uh, classic comedy group. Anyway, it's just uh wonderful to connect again. And I I really want to have you on this program because I think you and your family have really put together something very unique, not just something that's very like American, but it's something that I think is very relevant to many different populations uh across the US, across the world. And I'd like to really get started by understanding, first of all, what Freedom Fest is, um, but really through the lens of how your family actually started this whole event. So tell us about how your family really started this event and really leading up to what Freedom Fest is now.
SPEAKER_01Awesome. Thanks so much. So I think Freedom Fest was a long time in the making. It draws together many elements in my family. My dad is an Austrian economist and a financial advisor. He runs a newsletter called Forecasts and Strategies and really has been part of the Liberty Movement since the early 70s when he wrote his dissertation at George Washington University on the gold standard. And he got really involved with Jim Blanchard's effort to uh renationalize gold and to get American currency back on the gold standard. And so my dad has been part of conferences um ever since the early 1970s. He's appeared at different financial and political conferences. Um my mom as well works with my dad, and they have written many, many books together as part of their book business. Um, my mom is also a passionate liberty person and an author in her own right. So we've been around the political discourse. My great-uncle is Cleon Scousen, and he, of course, wrote The Naked Communist, The Naked Capitalist, The Making of America, um, the 5,000-year leap, many books that people like Glenn Beck and others are um count as very inspirational source material for their own track through Liberty. And my uh great uncle also formed the Freeman Institute, which is now the National Center for Constitutional Studies. So we have a lot of this background um coming together. So when my my dad was uh brought on board at the Foundation for Economic Education in 2000 um 2001 as the president, as he was doing that work, he really noticed how siloed the different think tanks and nonprofit groups were. That there were a lot of groups out there, like Heritage and Cato, Mackinac Center, you know, many, many others, the Goldwater Institute. And yet they really did not connect very much. There wasn't a lot to, in his mind, a lot of connection between the work that these various groups were doing. And he also knew that in his financial world, there were a lot of people who were very dedicated to liberty, but there was this division between kind of like finance and business and like academia, um, scholarly kind of policy work that was going on with the think tanks. And in his mind, all of this was part of a liberty movement. So, as president of Fee, he and and my mom, along with him, they really worked together to form the first Fee Fest, Foundation for Economic Education, um, Fee Fest, and they launched that in 2002 in Las Vegas. They picked Las Vegas very intentionally for two reasons. Number one, at the time it was really perceived as the most libertine or libertarian city. You could gamble there, and there were, you know, legal brothels and things like that. So it was really a free choice kind of location. And also a really good partner that my dad had worked with for many years, Kim Giffler, was running her money show there, and she offered to allow FeeFest to kind of piggyback on her event a little bit, which really allowed it to launch initially. And about 900 people showed up for that first event, it was very successful. Ben Stein was the original keynote speaker, and um it was it was super successful. Um Mark moved on from being president sometime after that, and um and Fee kind of continued to do it. Young America's Foundation did it for a little while, and then uh in 2006, my mom and dad wanted to uh really take over again, and so they came back, took over Fee Fest, and made it Freedom Fest. So the first Freedom Fest in that iteration was in 2007, again in Las Vegas at Bally's and um a much larger turnout somewhere in the 1500s, and um and it really began this growth that we've seen for the last 16, 17 years now of bringing together multiple people who care about liberty. Um, and I think that's the real focus of Freedom Fest is that we are an opportunity, the one place, the one time where we want everyone who cares about liberty in some capacity to come together to learn, share, network, and grow the liberty movement. So we really cast a wide net. We want think tanks there, grassroots organizations, we want politicians there with their campaigns. We want active, engaged citizens to come to Freedom Fest because though attendees, citizens, voters have things to share, things to learn, ways to get together. Um we bring together almost now 300 different speakers in various areas of expertise. We have businesses that come, financial services companies, oil and gas companies, coin companies. Um, and we're we're branching more and more to some techno cool technology and innovation that's starting to come to Freedom Fest as well, which is really exciting. So our exhibit hall is quite a thriving example of the metropolis of liberty, because liberty is not just limited to political thought and political rights. That is a huge part of it, but it is not the only way that we experience freedom. We have economic freedom, financial freedom, intellectual freedom, cultural freedom, creative and artistic freedom, and much, much more. Our health freedom is super important. How we take care of our bodies, how we take care of our finances, how we engage with each other in cultural values. These are all very, very important and come together to create a totality of freedom in our lives that moves way beyond politics, politicians, election systems, and all of that. So that's what we're about at Freedom Fest, the lifestyle of liberty, moving beyond just the political into all aspects of our lives. How can we live with more freedom, more sovereignty, more choice, more accountability, more responsibility, but also having that freedom to choose for ourselves?
SPEAKER_03That's a wonderful story. I mean, just going from putting together a conference almost about 20 years ago and now looking at what it's become, I fully agree with you in this idea of being able to allow people to see freedom in different elements. Because as much as I'm a politics nerd, I guess, for lack of a better term, and as much as I love Las Vegas too, and all that, but it's important to have people see these kind of different evidences, I guess you could say, of freedom in different uh in different subjects. So I really that's one of the things I really loved about Freedom Festival. The first time I went, obviously last year in 2022, and uh I I guess uh and it's great to hear Ben Stein was there. Uh uh did Ferris Bueller show up by any chance?
SPEAKER_01I know, right? We we would love for Ferris to show up. He was off you know at a at a baseball game, I'm sure.
SPEAKER_03Uh it's uh Chicago distracted him already, so he probably would have been somewhere around the strip there. Uh but obviously it's always great to hear that about big events in Las Vegas and my home state Nevada. So um definitely uh we'll talk a little bit more about some of the future plans of Freedom Fest, but I just want to say it was it's an extra feeling when Freedom Fest was in Las Vegas for so many years, it still will be, but you'll be alternating a little bit in the in the future. Uh now I want to go into like how how you got involved because I think you have a very interesting story too. Um, not just you know, your connection with obviously with your family starting this process, but how did you get involved uh as someone who's working there pretty much full-time, or at least you know, having a such a high role?
SPEAKER_01Oh, it's very full-time. Yeah, very full-time. Um, yeah, so I had obviously attended Fee Fest and Freedom Fest many, many times just because it was a family event. It was something really that my mom and dad did. Some of my cousins helped out. Um, my sister would kind of do some marketing for them, things like that. But I was in a very different trajectory. I had a career in marketing. I ran my own multimedia business and project management slash marketing business. And then uh I also am a dancer. I'm an Isadora Duncan uh dancer, and I have danced since the age of three, discovered the Isidora Duncan technique at the age of 19, and ever since then I've really dedicated myself to a deep understanding of the Isidora Duncan technique, repertory aesthetic, and I'm really a purveyor of that. I perform, I teach uh workshops, residencies, I do my own choreography work. I'm a dance artist in her technique and style. And so I had been in graduate school, got my Master of Fine Arts in Dance at the University of Maryland, and was working with the Kennedy Center and doing, building my own school and lots of different things. But um, I'll say this you know, you can be in in the art world, it's very interesting, and musicians, anyone who does art will understand this. You can be very good at it, you can dedicate your life to it, and it can still be incredibly hard to make money in this society in art. Um, and there's we could have a whole conversation on the state of art and the appreciation of art and the support of artists in our society, particularly America. It's very challenging. Um, and there's a so I was working and doing my dancing and loving it and and doing good things, but it was very difficult to make a living doing that. And so uh in the end of 2014, the lady who'd been working with my parents to run the conference on the logistical side decided to retire and move on to some other things. And so my parents reached out and said, Hey, do you want to try doing this? Um, and I I believe in the mission. I'm a libertarian myself. Um and I I believe very much in this idea of bringing people together to move liberty forward. Uh, I'm a I'm a uniter, not a divider, as the old phrase goes. And uh I thought it would be very interesting. So um I jumped in without really knowing what I was doing, and interestingly, really had to draw on my experience as a dance artist. I used a lot of the same skills. I wasn't trained as an event planner, I didn't have experience running conferences, but I had been going to conferences with my parents since I was very young. So I knew that world. Um, obviously, I knew the political world, I knew the libertarian world, I knew a lot of those players and the philosophy and things like that. But how to run um, you know, how to do hotel attrition and food and beverage minimums and labor contracts. Didn't know that so much. So there was a big learning curve on that. But what was interesting is that when I had self-produced my own dance performances, I had had to book a venue, I had had to market it myself, I had to figure out what the program was, who the different cast members were. The cast members were like speakers, the, you know, the dance program was like having your schedule of different sessions. Um, I would often have a reception afterwards, so I had to do a little catering. You know, there were lighting considerations. How do you get the um all the music put together? How do you coordinate everyone? How do you lay out a rehearsal schedule? So there was a logistical aspect that I had implemented and used in my dance experience that very much translated over. And I will just say, as a little pitch, even if you're not going to make art your career, there is so much value educationally to giving yourself artistic creative experiences. And I think I am a better event planner because of my artistic side and artistic background than I would be if I didn't have that. And so I really, really value that creative aspect of myself in how I approach Freedom Fest as a conference and as a project. Um and I think that's why, and we'll talk, I'm sure we'll talk about this a little bit, but we're the ways that we're expanding, just to give it a little foreshadowing, uh are very much in line with that belief and commitment to creativity and artistry.
SPEAKER_03I really appreciate the way that you've described that symbiotic relationship between your artistic and dance side with the logistical side. I I never never thought of it that way, but the way you think you put it, I think makes it make it seems sound like that that relationship is really making something bigger than either of those two parts. And uh the I think that's also in a way, uh now I think about it, maybe that's kind of how I see Freedom Fest too, which is you know, everyone's got their own expertise and whatnot, but to kind of come together under this one one event and have people mingle and network, which let's be honest, I mean, especially given the last few years, I mean, that's something that was just such a relief when I went to Freedom Fest. It was probably the first conference in a while. Oh, one of I went to another conference before, but it's like one of like two conferences really in the last few years for me. Wow. And just seeing everybody there. Which which kind of leads me to my next question, which is really I mean, if you're you're putting this uh huge event together, just like with anything, there's gotta be some challenges, gotta be some different things that you have to overcome to be able to put together something like this. But just as an overview, what are the kinds of challenges that uh you and your family, your team uh really have to overcome when to when you put together a Freedom Fest every single year?
SPEAKER_01Blessfully, we have been largely um benefited by the fact that this is a passion project for all of us, and we're dealing with people who also really believe in what we're doing. I would say that it's um we are a small team. We're trying to grow our team, but um it it the workload is huge. Anyone who's put on an event knows that the workload, and it's it's almost like no matter what you do, it is just super stressful and way too much work. Like just our basically from now until the conference happens in July, I almost can do nothing else. Like that's all I can do. Um and most of the team is like that. So that is challenging because how do you support each other? How do you maintain a work-life balance when you're trying to do something so big and reach out to as many people and be as impactful as you can with as many people, but you're trying to work with a very small team to do that. So that's always a challenge. Um, if you grow too much, you get too big, you have people who lose the vision, don't understand. You also have to manage those people. That's one thing. As we've been growing and bringing more people, all of a sudden I'm like, oh, I actually have to like work with those people and they have great ideas, and now it's like you have more because they come with their own ideas and their expertise and things like that. So um that's an interesting growth, it's an interesting challenge. Um you know, it's always interesting to work with venues and logistics and costs. Um, I think a lot of people feel like Freedom Fest, we we do, I think we do a really good job of producing a very professional show without a lot of extra money. You know, we it's it's a for-profit um venture. It is not a nonprofit, so we don't get donations. And Mark's vision was always that this really needs to be a conference that everyone wants to go to. So we don't do a lot of big name speakers. We have a few, like John Cleese, as you mentioned, but most people we don't want just the fly in, fly out, let me make my grand appearance. We're really looking for people who are. Personally interested. Steve Forbes is a great example. He's one of our co-ambassadors. He comes every year and he's there for the entire conference because he really loves it. And he is there because he's interested. Like he'll speak on the main stage. And then as soon as he's done, he's going to a breakout session, you know, on some topic that he's interested in. So you could, you're sitting there next to Steve Forbes because he wants to be there to hear the same thing that you are. And we have a lot of speakers who are like that. And most of our exhibitors and sponsors, too, are not there just because they're trying to sell something or they're there because they also really want to learn the material. And I think that creates a very interesting dynamic. I'll say one of the other, one of the challenges, though, of putting together a conference like this is that we have lots of ideas. And we think to ourselves, oh, so-and-so would be so great to have come. But just because you want that to happen doesn't mean it can happen because there's this quirky little thing called free choice. And so, you know, we may have an idea of a speaker or a sponsor or something that we want to have happen. We'll reach out, we'll invite. Like there's a lot of reasons that, so it's it's cute because uh we'll get people, why don't you have so and so at Freedom Fest? And it's like, we ask them, they can't come, they're not interested, they're too expensive, da-da-da. Um, so, and a lot of times people don't understand that. Like, why can't you just have so-and-so because I want to see them, and we're like, we want to see them too. But you even attendees, like, I there's only so much I can put together the best program I can at the best price I can and still be covering our costs, but I can't force someone to catch the vision, you know. So I can put out my best effort, but you still have to entice and convince people to come. And if they've got a family vacation or something already scheduled, you know. Um, it so that part is always interesting. You can have these great ideas, put your best foot forward, and still people still have their lives and their things and their commitments and you know, their challenges, health challenges or what have you. Um, so those are some things that we find it's it's very intense work. Um, we really rely on everyone coming together and financially supporting this effort. We need the exhibitors and the sponsors and the attendees to help us. We put this big thing together. It's very expensive to put on the food and beverage minimums, the AV, the marketing, the staff. It's surprising how expensive a conference is to put on. So we really value and appreciate the fact that people are willing to contribute financially to what we're doing to be there. And I'll also say that we I was alluding to this earlier, we really appreciate the different contributions that every single type of attendee brings to Freedom Fest. I really believe that our biggest keynote speaker of the of the conference, whoever that is, is bringing value just in the same way that, in my opinion, that an attendee is bringing. The fact that the attendee is there has equal value to me as whatever speakers we have, sponsors, exhibitors. Everyone has something that they're contributing. And it doesn't work. If we had a conference with only speakers and an empty audience, doesn't work. If we had an exhibit hall filled with exhibitors, no attendees, doesn't work. Um, if we had all attendees and no speakers and no exhibitors, would not work. Um, but it's so interesting to see the questions that attendees ask. You know, they can they're so knowledgeable. Our attendees are amazing. They are educated, informed, uh curious, inquisitive, open-minded. These are the types of people who come to Freedom Fest. And that, so the comp you'll see a little cluster of a mix of an exhibitor, a speaker, a few attendees in a corner somewhere at Freedom Fest having a really cool conversation that I'm like, dang, we should have put that. Like, if I had known about that, we could have made that a session. Like it's so it's not even just what you see on stage or in the breakout rooms. You're gonna have these really cool conversations with really cool people, no matter what their badge says that they are. These are all people with vested interests and something to contribute to the liberty movement in some capacity. So everyone who comes to Freedom Fast has tremendous value, and I think that's really cool.
SPEAKER_03Well, you could write a book about how to put together a conference, have like you know, like a Ten Commandments sort of thing with the with the conference. The the insight that you bring is so valuable. And I I especially want to point out what you said about everyone's contribution, because everyone is gonna have some kind of view about what they see in the literary movement or what they can contribute. And I think that's what America is about. We we don't can't we don't put everything about America into one person or one group of people or one state. Uh we we do it in like a you know, it's like a it's like a hodgepodge or it's like a quill, however you want to see it, but it's it creates something new. And uh that that's that's something that I think is so valuable.
SPEAKER_01It's very correct. And unfortunately, I've you know, as we know, the social media and media um has really even our political, I think um, our politicians have really devolved the discourse. And it has become so divisive and polarized, as we know. This is something that I think there are very few people who would argue with that point, that we have become divisive and discordant. And that is something that at Freedom Fest talk about a mission and a vision. That is our number one mission to be able to have real conversations that lead to real solutions about real issues, and so we really uh try to eschew any kind of use of political labels. We don't, we really try not to identify people as right or left or conservative or progressive or republican, democrat, libertarian. Because what ends up happening when you do that is people already have their alignments for the most part. There are the independents who identify that way, but if someone's a Democrat, they really identify with that. And if they hear someone's a Republican, very often there's a sense of I know what that person thinks, and I don't agree with them. I already know that I'm a Democrat and I don't agree with Republicans. And Republicans, honestly, are the exact same way. I hear all the time Republicans identifying Democrats as the enemy. And I'll I'll share that one thing I experienced in graduate school is in in dance, we looked at dance ethnography, we looked at other dance in other cultures, um, and I learned how to look at dance in a different culture with using different values. There was a book I read about um in a small Polynesian culture that the dancers would burn each other with um bright with um torches. And I when I first learned that I was horrified, like, oh my gosh, like you're burning each other in dance. That sounds terrible. And then when you read the ethnographic study and you learn about this tribe's history, their culture, their values, what they had gone through together, you get to the end of the book, and the ethnographer redescribes the burning dance, and I wept because it was so clear why they had to burn each other, why they did it. So I was able to change my lens. And with my cohort, I was not which you would, I'm libertarian, so obviously there are things I agree with on a so with so a so-called progressive, perhaps in the cultural space, anti-war space, things like that. But what I learned was there were there was a lot of sincerity in my cohort's concerns about climate change or homelessness or gay rights. There was a lot of it it wasn't, I knew these people. I knew that they weren't out to ruin society, but they had deep real concerns about people's opportunities and the beauty of this world. And I really felt like, gosh, if we could just truly listen to everyone's concerns, if Democrats could listen to Republicans, why are Republicans concerned about traditional values? Why are it's not that they want to keep everybody like harnessed in necessarily or you know, all these things that they get accused of? I I love how so many times whatever one side wants to do, the other side is like, oh my gosh, you want to kill old people, and then the other side wants to do something, and then that side is saying, oh, you want to kill old people or kill this, or you know, it's like all this drama around that. And so I'm saying all that to say at Freedom Fest, we really want to give space for thinking, for listening openly and honestly to perspectives perhaps you don't agree with, at least initially, and maybe you never will, and that's okay. But what we really do is we come together to listen. So on a panel, I'm not gonna have a left-right dynamic like ever. I'm gonna try to have more because you know what? It's not just that polarized divide between Republican thought and Democrat thought, or conservative thought and liberal thought. There are constitutionalists, there are voluntarists, there are anarchists, there are dogs who get very upset. I don't sorry about my dog barking. She's in agreement where um there are other perspectives that aren't on either side. And honestly, in in our society, we are doing a huge disservice to ourselves, to our families, to our communities, to our society that we do not listen to these other ways of thinking about things. And there are other ways, and they have things that we should consider. Um, and so we try to present a lot of those ideas at Freedom Fest. It could be difficult because you can start to, this is another challenge, maybe. You get to the point where certain people aren't willing to share the stage with other people because they don't agree with them. And so there are oftentimes we want to have a more co, an even more cohesive, well-rounded, multiply perspective, nuanced conversation. And unfortunately, there are certain people who be like, I will not be on stage with that person because I just disagree with them so much. It's like you can't even have a conversation with them. Like, you don't have to agree, and you can present your side and won't even touch it. I, you know, just absolute refusal. And I think there are many people, unfortunately, in our society right now that are at that place. They cannot tolerate even hearing another person's perspective. And we see that all the time with, you know, the cancel culture and things like that, where I can't even tolerate that you've written a book or even read a book that I didn't don't agree with. And then you're bad, you're awful, you're on, you're evil, you know, you're the enemy. So what I think is unique about Freedom Fest is that we're not um we're not in that divisive dichotomy. We're really trying to have those nuanced open conversations with multiple perspectives. And what I find exciting is when people who um are looking for that are able to come to Freedom Fest and experience that. And I think slowly but surely we can start to let people realize again that it's okay to disagree. It's okay to find places where you do agree, even with people you might think you have a vastly different point of view. Where do you agree? Where can you agree? If we could get back to that, we would start seeing a lot more progress in our society, a lot more harmony, a lot more peace, a lot less stress. And it would just take people to quit fighting on social media and start understanding on social media. It would take our politicians to stop vitrioling each other and putting each other down and saying, where can we agree? Where can we work together? But as soon as anyone does that on one side or the other, everyone else in their camp is like, oh, you've turned, you know, you're a turncoat, you're a traitor, and we're not gonna fund your next campaign if you don't fall in line and be lockstep if you want.
SPEAKER_03These are such important points that you bring up, Valerie, though, because uh it's also, I think, particularly interesting when you discuss these issues in the liberty movement. I mean, within the movement, there needs to be an expectation, whether it's from you or from our authorities or from schools or wherever, there needs to be an expectation that people need to live out what they preach, or at least at least be able to be in a space where they can do that. It seemed it I I fully agree with you that there's a lot of people who are just kind of they're they carry the brand. It's kind of like you know, you going to a school just for the namesake, but they're not they don't really get anything value from it. Any value from it's like going to Harvard or Stanford just because you want to go around telling people that you went to Harvard or Stanford. But what about that actual intellectual journey with the work that you did? And that seems to be a a large issue in our politics, uh especially from your vantage point. I think that there's really good tie-in, I think, with with some of the the big topics, especially after COVID, because COVID really brought about a myriad of all these issues. From your standpoint, uh what do you think has what are some major some changes that you have seen in terms of the the discourse on liberty? I mean, this is it's such a broad question, but if you can boil it down to a handful of things that attendees and speakers and others have have communicated with you and your team, uh, I think that'd be great.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So it's been a myriad of reactions, I think, and and differences happening. One, I do feel like there was a call to action that activated certain people to move, think, and behave differently in a similar way to 9-11. You know, after 9-11, there were a lot of people that joined the military that, you know, got involved in politics in a different way because they were so concerned about this attack that happened from different, and that there's some complications there, but that it still was a galvanizing kind of like call to action. I've got to move differently, I've got to take action. And I think there we've encountered a lot of speakers and attendees who have said, this pandemic changed things for me. I realize I can't just go about my life, I need to get involved, um, I'm very concerned, I don't like this, that, and the other that happened as a result of the pandemic, and I needed to take action. I needed to start to speak out, I needed to do all these different things. So that was one. I will say also, I see more fear in people ever since that happened. Um, I think people are still hesitant to travel, they're hesitant to spend money, they're hesitant to engage, they're hesitant to gather. There are people who still live in a place of fear after going through this pandemic that is affecting the conference and different aspects like that. So there's that. I think we definitely see uh health freedom becoming a much more important uh topic. It was important before, it's become even more important since the pandemic. Also, educational choice was a huge revolutionizing trend. I think so many people realized that the problems with our public school education system, the problems with the Department of Education, they had their kids home, they saw them struggling on Zoom, they a lot of them gave up on Zoom and gave homeschooling a try, and that opened their eyes to how doable that is, to how valuable it was to have your kids with you. Um, I think that also opened up the fact that so many people were home. That's changing some things. And I'll say the last trend is how much more comfortable everyone is on Zoom now. Um and that is also changing how people want to interact with conferences. I think there are multiple people now who are willing to live stream a conference that would never have considered that five years ago. Um, even we're more willing to consider live streaming a conference. That was something Mark was dead set against, and we're kind of like, oh, we kind of like things have changed now. So we do see people more engaged. We all I also see the opposite, people more fearful. I see certain topics coming up that are of deep concern to people. Um and I also, you know, wonder about the future of getting together. But I think there's something that can never be replaced by the tangible physical, the analog experience of living. And um, I really believe in getting out in nature, I believe in uh hands-on experiences, I believe in the energy that we share when we're actually physically in the same space, and there's nothing that can ever replace that. Um and I think we need to continue to value that in our society, even if the Zoom and the screens and the technology is all available to us, we need to use our wisdom to know that we still need nature, we still need movement, we still need to engage with things tangibly, and we need each other's energy. Um, and I think that just because we have the presence of an opportunity doesn't mean we just relinquish ourselves mindlessly to that. We are conscious human beings, and I think we can consciously choose how to engage with our social media, how to engage with our technology, and how to maintain those things that we know are good for us and never let go of that.
SPEAKER_03I associate Freedom Fest with Las Vegas so much, not just because the first time I was in Vegas, but because what you've just illustrated, I think, is what Vegas is all about, which is that experience. Because there's no you cannot experience Vegas without being in Vegas. It's like you can go to a casino, you can go to a casino in California or in Louisiana or somewhere. I'm not saying that they're bad places, I'm just saying if you want a specific experience, I think that's why the the hotel rates are crazy on the weekends in Las Vegas, because all these folks who come from California and other places want to be with other people. Something about walking down the strip and seeing all these throngs of people. Maybe you're a people watcher like myself, maybe it's just you're you don't I don't I feel like half of the time people don't really know what they're seeing, they're just walking, they just know that they're walking down to Las Vegas. That's it. There's no content to really awareness, but that's okay. You know, the there's they're still having a lot of fun, they're still doing all that. Um, but I I I just wanted to just express my agreement with your sentiment on the the value of being with other people and just again that networking element. Like I I don't I don't think I'll put it this way, Valley. I don't think I would have I think it was it was a big deal for me to meet you in person because uh certainly we connected you know via video chat, right? But uh I think it was such a different feeling to be able to shake your hand, be able to look at you in the eye and all that. Um so I just I just want to say it it's it's just you know for whatever reason it it doesn't necessarily change the person or myself, it just changes the dynamic a little bit, it makes it a bit more real.
SPEAKER_01It does. The energy that's shared um with our world and with each other is that's a real thing. And um, I think we actually need that connectedness um, you know, in a metaphysical way and a spiritual way. That's why we have this consciousness, and um, and freedom is really tied up in that. We don't talk a lot um about the spirituality of liberty and freedom, but we are these conscious spiritual beings. And whether you're religious with that or not, there is this spark of life in us, and that does have connection and resonance with the rest of all this creation around us. Um and I think that when we come together around our passion, That is and a passion that's so essential to who we are as human beings, that manifests itself. I think there's a reason we get so many stories of collaboration and projects and momentum and progress that people make in their personal life, in their businesses, in their you know projects, they there's momentum that gets that happens there in a really exciting way that is unique. And you can make progress in other ways, and you we have to, you know. Um we wouldn't be able to do this interview if we weren't doing it this way, and I'm really grateful for it. But to be able to do something, to have something like Freedom Fest that is live in person and provides that analog, hands-on, vibey experience. There's nothing else like it. Um and we and we and that's why as much as we talk about serious topics, we also have a lot of fun together. We have, you know, social engagements, karaoke, we have our comedy festival that we're doing. We have our we have live music. Uh, we're working towards actually launching a music festival as part of Freedom Fest. So we're having more and more live music, we're having an art show, visual art, we have our film festival. So you know, we we have our big banquet where we literally get up and dance, sing and dance together, you know, and um that is so important that life is supposed to be joyous. Our freedoms are supposed to be life-affirming and really gorgeous aspects of being alive, and so often we're so heavy with oh, we're losing our freedoms and inflation and oh my gosh. And we need to address all those things, and we do address them. But at Freedom Fest, we don't forget that life is glorious and that being alive is wonderful, and that each one of us is unique and individual and valuable. And so we celebrate that, and we celebrate it with a lot of fun things, things that'll make you laugh, things that'll make you literally sing and dance, um, things that'll put a smile on your face, as well as addressing practical solutions to things that maybe need some addressing, you know, or definitely need some addressing. But I think it's that balance that is also really interesting about Freedom Fest. It's that balance of recognizing that life is more and that this is essential, but it doesn't have to be so heavy. Or how can we address it with more joy and lightness so that we can shift through it and get to that other side where we actually have the freedom that we're supposed to have. Um, so yeah, that's that's part of what I love about Freedom Fest, actually.
SPEAKER_03Very well said. I I wholeheartedly agree, especially when, as you say, like it does feel doesn't feel like there's a lot of people whenever I read the news in DC or whatever, everyone just so serious or a lot of times it's very serious. And I just wish that people could find that level of jewel. I don't feel like when I go to a conference, if there isn't a fun element, I don't think I would be willing to go anymore. Like, I don't think you can ever like put it put together event without having some kind of fun component. It doesn't even have to be sophisticated, it should just be even if it's just going out and I don't know, if you're in Seattle, you just see the space needle. Like at least it's something. But uh it just but it seems like we do live in a world of I think maybe the politicization, or I should say, when people just bring up politics, it's like, okay, I'm not saying, you know, I I full f fully agree with the First Amendment and free speech, but it seems like there's just some unwritten rules that it used to be that that's something I learned, this is just through the history books, but it used to be that you didn't talk about religion and politics in the workplace, but that certainly has changed a lot. I feel like you can't get into workplace or even sometimes uh a place uh a place of worship without some kind of without some kind of political side. How how do you see politics seeping into these kinds of areas of sport and entertainment all? How do you think that affects uh our view of what we should of how we should view the Liberty?
SPEAKER_01Boy, Sherman, I think you may have stumped me. That's a big question.
SPEAKER_03I try not to. The Freedom Fest curiosity is.
SPEAKER_00Oh I know, I love it, I love it.
SPEAKER_01These these are valuable things. Um gosh, I have mixed feelings about the politicization of business and sports and things like that. On the one hand, I feel like we need some respite. Um we need for things to not be political and to just be life things. And on the other hand, we are all principled and political and val, you know, we have values, and we should be able to freely bring those things up. I think the problem right now is that very few people in our society right now can tolerate the presence of a view they do not agree with. And so when you're in a business setting, or when you're in a sports setting, and somebody kneels in a way that you don't agree with, or someone sings a patriotic hymn in a way that you don't agree with, or praise in a way that you don't agree with, there's outrage. And the presence of outrage in our society is almost ubiquitous now. And I think that's the problem. We should be able, if we want to, have conversations in our business settings, if we want to talk about politics or religion, we should be able to do that and be able to, oh, that's what you think. I don't agree with you. Isn't that interesting that we don't agree? Now, what about those quarterly reports? You know, and maybe you agree in your in your business that that, you know, keep that for happy hour. You know, let's just focus on business. And I think with sports, um certain kinds of artistic experiences, performing arts, theater, things like that, that's become heavily political too. I've been at several Broadway shows where there's been like a cast statement about, you know, trans rights or different things, and they feel very strongly about it. And on the one hand, they should be able to express it. And as an audience member, I should be able to say whether I agree or not, but just to be able to say, hmm, that's their opinion, that's what they want to say. Okay, I'm okay with it. And at the same time, there's this feeling of like, I just came for a play. Do I have to hear about election integrity? Like, you know, whatever. Like, can I just go to a play? So I it is a challenge. There are some interesting shifts going on in our society about where we're trying to open things up for some people who have been shut down, which I think is is overall actually in a liberty space of like everyone should have the right to live their life how they want to live. I believe in that. And on the other hand, as that's happening, it's impacting some areas where we didn't have impact before, and that's impacting people who are trying to live their life in the way that they've lived, and they're being shut down, forced out, having to change. And they were like, wait a second, I didn't change. Why all of a sudden am I having to compete in a swim race differently? How come I'm having to um compete differently? I'm a filmmaker, all of all of a sudden Hollywood is recognizing that they have disproportionately not hired minority or women directors or something like that. So now there's this push to hire people that haven't been hired before, that have been overlooked before, but now other perfectly legitimate directors are being overlooked because they're not minority or women or you know, whatever. And so they're they're being affected by that. And I don't think we've figured out as a society how to manage changing in one area while maintaining a sense of certain values, because those seem to be in conflict. And it's unfortunate that people who are advocating for one thing can't recognize the impact necessarily on another group, and that the other group also can't recognize that these people are asking for something, and that might change the way I move, and how can I deal with that? So that's a very high-level way to, um, or maybe not very specific way to answer your question, but I'm just recognizing that the conversations are shifting, the value, certain values in our society are shifting. Um and how can we reconcile that um in a way where where the ultimate values of of equality, choice, um personal sovereignty, those kinds of things are upheld. And I just think there's a there's some space here where certain people are saying, no, you have to think what I think. And the other people are like, no, you have to value what I value. And those things are very much in conflict. Um so, and I don't have an answer for whether we should talk about politics and religion in business and sports. I just feel like there's we've gotten very intolerant of the presence of someone's opinion that that we don't share. And that's probably where the ultimate problem is.
SPEAKER_03Exactly. Yeah, it's a it's a tough question, no question, no doubt about it. But I I think it's I I know.
SPEAKER_01Everything has an easy answer. I love that you're asking that question.
SPEAKER_03That's a that'll be the nuanced conversation.
SPEAKER_01Something we should talk about at Freedom Fest.
SPEAKER_03Yes, exactly. It'll be it'll be broadcast everywhere. It's like everyone, this is the only question we're talking about that we're answering. This is the only question that matters. I'm just kidding. Um, but I I really want to now shift into really looking into the future. So uh as someone who's heavily committed to Freedom Fest and its mission and vision, where do you see Freedom Fest in five years, ten years, or and well into the future?
SPEAKER_01Well, I think we have a really strong base ideologically. You know, we know that we want to bring people together who care about liberty in whatever area they care about it. So whether it's a social issue or a financial freedom issue or a political issue, we want you to come to Freedom Fest to share that vision that you have, to learn from others, and to collaborate with people who can help you and that maybe you can help them. That's the real mission of Freedom Fest. And I would like to get that message out there for all the people out there who are wanting that, yearning for it, not seeing it in their political structures right now, not seeing it in the media, not seeing it on social media, and yet really want that. We are doing that at Freedom Fest, and we are putting the call out to as many people who are open-minded enough to come together and collaborate in that way and have these nuanced conversations. Um, share what you feel, learn what you can learn, you know, all those things. So I see us on a growth trajectory. We're already seeing ourselves growing over the past couple of years since the pandemic. We're at higher and higher numbers, we're getting more and more attention from media and sponsors and bigger organizations. And as I was mentioning before, we're also branching out into more of this creative space. Um, how do we have political satire through comedy? How do we message liberty through filmmaking, through visual arts, through music, eventually through performing arts, you know? Um, and what I like to say is that as we branch into that, it's not to me, there's preachy art, you know, there's art that um you use, you make a film to like really make a point. And to a certain extent, Ayn Rand was like that. Like Atlas Shrugged is pretty preachy. Like she goes into her long John Galt speeches where she's really just hitting those philosophical points. The Fountainhead is a little more artistic overall and just has her underpinnings there. I really prefer the the Fountainhead. But if you look at a book like Robert Heinlein, um his science fiction was excellent art, excellent literature that happened to have liberty values and philosophies that just underpin it. There are certain movies like V for Vendetta where they're using that philosophy of choice and anti-authoritarianism in that, but it's not to beat you over the head with it. It's just that's, you know, kind of the underpinning of how the characters are making their choices and the story arc. It's a great film in and of itself, regardless of whether there's the presence, well, I guess it would be inherent, but it's not like I'm trying to make this movie in order to preach this point. So I think we need great artists out there. Um, and we want at Freedom Fest, we want to support that. We want to support great art making that happens to be liberty-minded, liberty-supported, that people with that philosophy are making great art, and it inherently comes out. Um, so we're looking to grow. We want even bigger and better speakers, we want more and more attendees, we want um even more interesting exhibitors and sponsors. We already have fantastic, all of that is already fantastic. We have such a good group, and we want more people who can catch this vision and join us. I'd like to see us at 5,000, 10,000, 15,000 and be a really robust, impactful um conference. It's like, well, what happened at Freedom Fest this year? Like it's the coachella of the Liberty World of the South by Southwest of the Liberty World, you know, like very diverse, very interesting. Lots of people come and we have this great experience all around Liberty because Liberty encompasses so much. So that's kind of the vision of Freedom Fest going forward. Just bigger, better, badder, you know, cooler, awesomer.
SPEAKER_03That's awesome. The more the merrier, you know. Like just uh yes. Well, I I I'm very confident that you know the work that you're doing and the work of the sponsors and the exhibitors and anyway. Yes, they're so important. It really takes a village. And uh something you kind of alluded to earlier about the importance of everyone's contribution. Yeah, which I I wish that we had more of that in our discourse. I wish that more people recognize, even if it's someone who they disagree with, but they recognize at least one contribution is made to something or somewhere. Seems like nowadays one of the reasons why people are so intolerant is because one, they're not they feel like they're not being heard, you know, they they may act that they themselves might not be making other people feel heard.
SPEAKER_02True.
SPEAKER_03Um so that's kind of an educational, you know, at home and at school sort of thing. But two, it might also be because uh because of the environment that we're in, we we don't allow this uh ability to think of one good thing or one thing that you like about someone.
SPEAKER_01It may it makes all the difference in the world. It really does, because we can get so heavy, so focused on the negative, and there are positive things going on all around us, and we need to focus on those things too.
SPEAKER_03And and I don't know if you'll be silly shocked or happy or surprised or whatever when I say this, but I I was able, I think it was sometime last year, uh I heard one of your podcast interviews with with someone, I can't remember. But I think if I recall correctly, that you are related to someone who people know is on the hundred dollar bill.
SPEAKER_01Is that oh yeah. Okay, yes, I am a direct descendant of Benjamin Franklin through my dad's maternal line. So my dad is also related to him, and my dad actually dresses up like Ben Franklin all the time and wrote, he's written several books, The Wit and Wisdom of Ben Franklin, and then he and my mom um did a really cool project. It's called The Completed Autobiography by Benjamin Franklin. So the original autobiography that so many of us read in high school, um, that only goes up through 1757, really through his uh poor Richard's almanac publishing career. It does not cover any of the revolution, any of the declaration, any of his time in France. And so what my mom and dad did is they went to Yale, went to his the collection of all of his papers, every letter, every article, everything that he wrote, and they meticulously went through that and pulled out his actual words and compiled those to tell the rest of his story. So in the completed autobiography, it's all Franklin's words edited together to tell the story of how he, you know, interacted with John Adams and um Thomas Jefferson and the Declaration and George Washington and the Revolutionary War, and then moving on to ambassadoring in France and all of that, all through the rest of the end of his life. So it's a really cool project. And um when my when it was the 2006 and it was the 300th birthday of Benjamin Franklin as the first postmaster, the US Post Office put out a stamp, and my dad was there as a representative of his direct lineage, dressed up as Ben Franklin to like have that commemorative experience with the stamp, the re the revealing of the stamp. So that was a really cool thing we did in Philadelphia back in 2006 as a result of our lineage.
SPEAKER_03That's beautiful. I mean, just hearing about that connection, and I'm sure that's now uh that's for that you don't have to think about Halloween costume ideas anymore. You can just go go with just everyone as you know is Ben Franklin. I'll be the the go-to Halloween costume.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. Well, it's funny because on that side of the family, it's Ben Franklin. On the other side of the family, we're pretty sure we're related to um Jesse and Frank James. Um, we also have a connection to Billy the Kid and then Stephen Foster, who wrote a bunch of uh of the old you know, you know, Home Sweet Home and some of those songs from in the in the 19th century. So we've got kind of an interesting mix of outlaws, like founding fathers.
SPEAKER_03Just all you need to do to complete the story is just go outside during a thunderstorm and fly kite and to test. Well, this is this is an absolutely wonderful conversation about Freedom Fest and just to really tie it all in with Washington's farewell address, as you as you and the audience may know, uh we tie in our conversations with uh those principles of Washington's farewell address. What do you what would you like to share about how you connect those values with our conversation today about Freedom Fest and really just the things that maybe we should keep in mind as we discuss these ideas of liberty even further?
SPEAKER_01Well, I gosh, I feel like um I feel like George would be very proud of Freedom Fest. Um we although we're not like super rah-rah flag-waving patriots, we are we are deep patriots in our principles, that those founding constitutional principles are what we really value. Um and and that we we believe that it goes beyond our borders, that these principles are for all human beings. We really invite all human beings to experience those constitutional principles and principles of liberty. So we're we're deep patriots, um but in the print in those principles. Um the faith I mentioned, you know, that we we bel I deeply believe in the spirituality of liberty. Um whether you profess that in a particular faith, um, you know, most of the founding fathers were um agnostics, and uh not all of them, but many of them were. Ben Ben certainly was. And so I think there's a huge range of religious and spiritual experience that is super tied in to what we're trying to talk about at Freedom Fest. We always have conversations about religion. Um in fact, one of our first big debates at Freedom Fest was between Christopher Hutchins and Dinesh D'Souza. And that was quite a debate, quite an amazing debate. Um, obviously, national unity, we approach that from how can, like I was saying, how can we bring people together? So it's not, oh, we're all lockstep in our ideology, but as Americans, as unique individuals, we can come together to adhere to greater principles of liberty, talk. About what's the best way to get there? Rather than my way is the only way, your way is terrible. How can we work together together? That's the unity. How can we work together to honor each other and make progress that way? So we definitely are all about bringing people together under the umbrella of liberty. Education, it's all educational. Like you will learn so much every every we do, we have 300 speakers and like 180 sessions on everything from politics, economics, finance, education, criminal justice reform. We talk about philosophy, history, technology, privacy, digital privacy, regular privacy. We talk about uh, you know, health, nutrition, fitness. We have yoga in the morning, like we talk about creativity, we talk, it is you cannot, it it blows your mind. You're like, how can I even conceive of all? We've had things on jazz and baseball and bird watching and like it's we keep it, it's an intellectual feast. It is education galore in uh at Freedom Fest. In fact, if you're not in school, you know, it is, I think, the best thing you can come to if you want to educate yourself with the real people doing the work, the real experts without that media filter that you get from everyone else. Come to Freedom Fest. You're gonna hear directly from the experts on a variety of topics. You're gonna come away so educated. Your brain will be exploding, you'll love it. Um fiscal responsibility. We have our whole financial freedom track with the Global Financial Summit and also our Eureka Summit, which is all about um helping entrepreneurs and small businesses run their business better because that is an aspect of owning your own life, being your own sovereign individual, you know, um, people who run their own businesses have a liberty mentality already, even if they don't even know it. So I think that also fits into the fiscal responsibility because um you have to, you know, be financially aware and prudent when you run your own business, when you're an entrepreneur, when you run your own family, you know. So that's why we have our whole financial freedom aspect at Freedom Fest. And then civility, like I was saying, um everything we do about Freedom Fest is about finding that civil discourse, open debate, honest conversation, civil discourse. That is what we were all about. We don't shout each other down, we don't, we don't insult each other. Um, I don't even like, you know, we don't we don't use titles that put down Biden or put down Trump or put down no, like we can be positive, you know, we can address negative negative things, but in a positive way. And that's what we do at Freedom Fest, and I think that's really a part of civility. Um, and we're all about that at Freedom Fest.
SPEAKER_03Hopefully this conversation is going beyond way beyond just uh the Freedom Fest, too. You know, having uh and then having people come back again, and uh it's just it's a wonderful cycle. I think what what you all are doing is so so wonderful. I just want to wrap up before we wrap up, uh what can people do to learn more about Freedom Fest? And obviously, if anyone's interested in this uh event, uh what can people do to sign up and register?
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. So a sincere invitation to all of your listeners, Sherman, to come to Freedom Fest. We're in Memphis this year, um, home of the National Civil Rights Museum. It's where Martin Luther King Jr. was assassinated. It is the home, obviously, of Graceland and also the the birthplace of blues, soul, and rock and roll. And I think that's such an interesting mix. Different cultures came together in Memphis, and instead of fighting and being divisive and saying, Don't, you know, don't take my stuff, don't take my culture, they shared their culture and they birthed something that was even greater. If you look at these different musical forms, they're even greater than what they came from separately. They um or at least they created something new. Maybe I shouldn't um superior hierarchy that, you know, they create on their own, but they created something new that's wonderful. So that's why we're in Memphis. Um we're really excited about being there. We're gonna have a huge program. There is definitely something for everyone. If you're not political, there's stuff on education, there's stuff on um social issues, there's stuff on philosophy, there's stuff on history. You can come and experience our comedy festival, the live music, films. Like there truly is something for everyone. And Elvis is gonna take us to Graceland, so you gotta come just for that reason alone. Um, we do have a special $50 off um code for all of your folks. It is fellow 50. So F-E-L-L-O-W 5-0. That will give you an extra $50 off your registration fee. We have special rates for students, we have special rates for young professionals under 30 and graduate students, things like that. Um, but go to freedomfest.com, that's www.freedomfest.com, and you can uh take a look at our full lineup. Um and we in fact, when this is airing, we'll probably be launching our full agenda within days. So you can see all the sessions, all this all the speakers, all the different events that we have going on, and there's still time to come because Freedom Fest is July 12th through the 15th this year in Memphis at the Renaissance Convention Center, and you are invited. Um, so please check us out, spread the word, buy your ticket, use the code Fellow50 for another $50 off. Guests are a lower rate, so bring a friend with you. It's always funner with a friend. Um, and please come to Freedom Fest because it's gonna be a great time.
SPEAKER_03Wonderful. And I I want to say thank you for obviously for the code. I'll be sure to put that on in the show notes below, as well as the Freedom Fest link as well. Also, listeners can check on George Washington Institute.org. I've also linked to the Freedom Fest recording that I did uh last summer. So you can also so you can see a bit of presence of friends and fellow citizens there last summer. Before we conclude, Value, I just want to say thank you so much once again for your valuable time today. I am very, very excited for all of you. You know, you and the Skalsman family, as well as all the supporters too, because in what you're doing is it's not an easy task, but it's very much worth, I think, the the time and effort that you put every single year. And I I really love how you brought up some of those insider sort of lessons that you learned, because it's one thing to show up to an event and say, wow, we got this, that, and that's amazing, right? But there's there's also all that work that people put into it, and what you and your team do to put that all together. I don't know how you do it, but all I know is that it lit up the Mirage quite well, you know, with the buzz. And uh when I was there last summer, and I know you're gonna do a fantastic job in Memphis, and of course, uh uh you will all be back in Vegas at some point. So that's right.
SPEAKER_01In two in 2024, we'll be back in Vegas at the Mirage, um, which is actually bought by Hard Rock Cafe. So uh I think it'll still be the Mirage, basically, but as we're there further years, it'll be more of a hard rock kind of experience, which would be cool.
SPEAKER_03There might be a large guitar next to Yes, they are building a large guitar.
SPEAKER_00That is correct.
SPEAKER_03The first giant guitar, first Freedom Fest with a giant guitar next to it.
SPEAKER_01There you go. We definitely have to have our music festival then.
SPEAKER_03Exactly, exactly. Uh well again, Valerie, thank you so much for your time. And once again, we really appreciate uh the what you've shared with our audience today.
SPEAKER_01Thank you so much. It's been a real pleasure, Sherman.
SPEAKER_03Thank you all so much for listening to this interview episode with Valerie Durham. I hope you enjoy learning about Freedom Fest. Make sure to check out the code Fellow50 down in the show notes below and the link to learn more about Freedom Fest this year in Memphis. Enjoy the rest of your day and rest of your week, and remember, a day in America is always better when we are with our friends and fellows.
